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Old 01-31-2013, 11:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
...The popularity and "cool" factor was majorly reinforced by Hollywood in the 1950's. Here we see James Dean again making jeans "cool" in Rebel Without a Cause....
And THAT RED JACKET!!!!!! Every teenage guy in the Fifties creamed to have that jacket. Oh! how we wanted it......we were already wearing the jeans and the white tee shirt, so that jacket was the ultimate article.
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Old 02-01-2013, 05:08 AM
 
Location: SE UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
The picture was a symbol of American car culture and that car culture pervades our primary means of cultural globalization, music and movies. It's not that cars are cool because American's drive them, but American car culture had a large influence on the perception of cars and yes, making them cool to youth via music and movies.



No, not horsehair shirts, but you might be wearing a lot more khaki. If you don't believe me, google the "history of jeans" or "how did jeans become popular the world over" and they all point back to the WW2 era where American servicemen would wear them on leave while overseas. The image was then heavily reinforced by Hollywood in the 1950's with the likes of James Dean and Marlon Brando. Jeans became popular among youth in Europe in the post-WW2 years as a symbol of freedom and youth culture.

Go back and look at pictures of Europeans in the 1930's, no jeans. Pictures of Americans at the same time, jeans. Then look at pictures from the 1950's and you start to see jeans, especially on young people. By the 1960's they were even more popular and widespread.



No, the KFC in Vietnam was simply an illustration of the pervasiveness of American popular culture. Remember, the debate at it's heart was your assertion that American culture had little to do with English being a global language and everything to do with Pax Britannica. I was merely providing evidence of the penetration of American culture and also articles both entertaining and scholarly discussing the impact of American culture on the globe; all of which seemed to support my assertion. People that don't live in Commonwealth or former British colonies don't sit down for tea and biscuits, but they all enjoy a coke, the Colonel's 11 herbs and spices or a Big Mac.



If you actually read what I said, you would realize that I readily acknowledge that fact. I said America was an amalgamation of cultures, that has then created something unique. If you read the research paper from Salzburg you would see this listed as being one of the main reasons that American culture is so pervasive. American culture is global culture because it is the one nation that houses virtually every culture of the world in one nation. Not only do we have Italian food, but within 20 miles of my house I can find Greek, Chinese, Vietnamese, Thai, Japanese, French, German, Russian, Turkish, Indian, Pakistani, Moroccan, etc. Heck we even have English pub food if you really are in the mood for bangers and mash. This amalgamation is also one of the reasons cited for the massive success of Hollywood in the early years globally.



They weren't, at least to the extent that they became as popular as they were. They were extremely popular in the UK immediately before coming to the US, but success in the US sealed their international acclaim. Prior to their appearance on Ed Sullivan and shows at the Washington Coliseum and Carnegie Hall the only place they had played outside of the UK was a 5 concert tour of Sweden, excluding the early pre-Cavern years they spent in Hamburg. After critical success in the US? 37 shows over 27 days across the world before coming back to the US for a 30 concert 23 city tour. People living in Soviet Russia didn't know all the words to Hey Jude because the Beatles were popular in the UK.

As for music, why is it that everyone who sings in English sings in an American accent? Have you ever pondered that? They could have such a thick accent that you need a Cockney to English dictionary when talking to them, but they start singing and they sound like they're from California or Ohio. From Germans to French to Swedes to Italians to Spaniards to Brits to Koreans, when they sing in English, they do it with an American accent. When Bocelli and Brightman sing 'Time to Say Goodbye' in English, American accent. When Psy belts out "Hey sexy lady" in the middle of 'Gangnam Style', American accent. When that horrible boyband One Direction you sent us sings, American accent. When Abba sang, American accent. When Die Toten Hosen sings, American accent. When Arashi (Japan) sings, American accent. When Mumford and Sons sings, American accent. Why is that?

Well, the music industry experts would say that it's because that's how people expect music to sound. Music sang in a more local dialect would sound strange to people around the world as American accents are commonly heard on a daily basis via music and movies. So, everyone sings with a neutral American accent. Now there are of course some exceptions, Oasis springs to mind, but for the most part popular 'pop music' or music made for an international audience all has that neutral American accent.



My buddies in Germany like me just fine and I can pretty easily blend-in when I travel. Again though, you're taking my statements in a very literal sense as if I believe that the sun rises and sets when America decides it does. That is not what I'm saying and yes, I am having a little fun with you in this conversation.

Our basic dialogue began when you questioned the impact of American culture on English having become a world language. Whether you like it or not or want to admit it or not, the primacy of English as a world language is largely related to American cultural influence. You conveniently ignored the links and quotes I provided from several sources discussing this phenomenon. You most likely ignored them because talking about the facts of globalized American culture is not nearly as fun as reminding me that we like to eat "Italian" food as if most people in Italy would even recognize most of the things Americans call Italian.

Again, I'm not claiming American supremacy in all things, just stating the cold hard facts related to the primacy of American popular culture and the impact it has on the world.

Some more reading...

From the University of Bucharest:
http://www.wseas.us/e-library/confer...D/AIKED-61.pdf

University of Chicago:
http://culturalpolicy.uchicago.edu/p...ers/cowen.html

University of Leipzig:
http://www.uni-leipzig.de/~compar/do...20American.pdf

William Stead's, The Americanization of The World, written in 1902:
The Americanization of the world: or, The trend of the twentieth century - William Thomas Stead - Google Books

His prediction: "She will probably become what we are now, the head servant in the great household of the world, the employer of all employed, because her service will be the most and ablest."



lol, I bet you're one of those Brits that thinks we give a toss about footie.
You really do believe that the Beatles only made it 'big' in the world because they became popular in the US dont you!!! You are so delusional its untrue!!! You honestly believe that the world is incabable of 'making cars cool' unless an American 'authorises' it!! Do you honestly believe that the Beatles wouldnt have made it big in Italy unless the Americans said they were 'cool'!!!!! I honestly dont know where to begin!! Perhaps in a year or two you could decide that English is in fact an American language and that the English themselves only speak it because Dustin Hoffman spoke it in the film 'Marathon Man'!
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:51 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,579 posts, read 86,631,990 times
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The New York baseball team would probably be called the Jankees, or something like that.
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Old 02-01-2013, 12:27 PM
 
14,780 posts, read 43,501,308 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by easthome View Post
You really do believe that the Beatles only made it 'big' in the world because they became popular in the US dont you!!! You are so delusional its untrue!!! You honestly believe that the world is incabable of 'making cars cool' unless an American 'authorises' it!! Do you honestly believe that the Beatles wouldnt have made it big in Italy unless the Americans said they were 'cool'!!!!! I honestly dont know where to begin!! Perhaps in a year or two you could decide that English is in fact an American language and that the English themselves only speak it because Dustin Hoffman spoke it in the film 'Marathon Man'!
Read any Beatles biography, success in the US cemented and propelled their international fame.

As for the cars, yes I'm quite sure popularized American car culture has absolutely nothing to do with the love of American classic cars in some European countries and Japan. I'm also totally sure that underground street racing that has become immensely popular in Asia and Eastern Europe has not been influenced in the slightest by American popular car culture and movies.

This article from a sociologist at the University of Lancaster provides some interesting incite into the "dominant role of American car culture in shaping the worlds view of the car and the role of automobility in the American model on the sociological fabric of the world":

http://www.tcd.ie/ERC/pastprojects/c...s%20Travel.pdf

Oh, we didn't invent English, that's all you guy's. Are we irrevocably changing it? Absolutely. Have you ever said or heard people say the following words in jolly old England: Awesome, Dude, 24/7, Alphabetize, Geek, Prom, Monkey Wrench, Rookie, From the Get-Go or the interjection of "like" or "so" in sentences as in "like"..."so"...what are you doing? Thank America.

That isn't even mentioning the fact that we are changing the way Brits pronounce words...

The 'conTROversy' over changing pronunciations - Telegraph

Quote:
In a study by the British Library, interim results suggest a third of Britons taking part now adopt the American-style “skedule†over the traditional pronunciation, which has a softer “sh†sound.


Other US pronunciations taking root, according to researchers, are “pay-trioticâ€, in place of “pat-rioticâ€, and “advertISEmentâ€, instead of “adVERTisementâ€.


Linguists put changing pronunciations down to the influence of broadcasters and US culture.
Let's see there are 62 million people in the UK and 314 million in the US. One of those countries cultures has an unrivaled influence on the globe, the other is clinging to their tea and biscuits and the fact that their king learned how not to stutter. I wonder which group has the greater influence over the evolution of their common language?
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Old 02-01-2013, 04:34 PM
 
Location: SE UK
14,810 posts, read 11,900,984 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
Read any Beatles biography, success in the US cemented and propelled their international fame.

As for the cars, yes I'm quite sure popularized American car culture has absolutely nothing to do with the love of American classic cars in some European countries and Japan. I'm also totally sure that underground street racing that has become immensely popular in Asia and Eastern Europe has not been influenced in the slightest by American popular car culture and movies.

This article from a sociologist at the University of Lancaster provides some interesting incite into the "dominant role of American car culture in shaping the worlds view of the car and the role of automobility in the American model on the sociological fabric of the world":

http://www.tcd.ie/ERC/pastprojects/c...s%20Travel.pdf

Oh, we didn't invent English, that's all you guy's. Are we irrevocably changing it? Absolutely. Have you ever said or heard people say the following words in jolly old England: Awesome, Dude, 24/7, Alphabetize, Geek, Prom, Monkey Wrench, Rookie, From the Get-Go or the interjection of "like" or "so" in sentences as in "like"..."so"...what are you doing? Thank America.

That isn't even mentioning the fact that we are changing the way Brits pronounce words...

The 'conTROversy' over changing pronunciations - Telegraph



Let's see there are 62 million people in the UK and 314 million in the US. One of those countries cultures has an unrivaled influence on the globe, the other is clinging to their tea and biscuits and the fact that their king learned how not to stutter. I wonder which group has the greater influence over the evolution of their common language?
The clue is in the name of the language my friend, you speak ENGLISH! I do not speak American, you are in fact speaking MY language given to the US by MY countrymen. The fact that you are now trying to claim the ENGLISH language is laughable and makes my point about how 'some' Americans like to claim everything in the world as American perfectly! Now that you have listed a handful of words that you seem to think are american shall I now make a list of words that I can claim to be English - then perhaps we can compare???
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:39 AM
 
14,780 posts, read 43,501,308 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by easthome View Post
The clue is in the name of the language my friend, you speak ENGLISH! I do not speak American, you are in fact speaking MY language given to the US by MY countrymen. The fact that you are now trying to claim the ENGLISH language is laughable and makes my point about how 'some' Americans like to claim everything in the world as American perfectly! Now that you have listed a handful of words that you seem to think are american shall I now make a list of words that I can claim to be English - then perhaps we can compare???
Well, American English is a recognized dialect, just as British English is a recognized dialect. Yes, it is all "English" and originated in England, but the language has evolved. The dominant dialect of English is American English which claims 2/3rds of the worlds native speakers of English. So, regardless of the fact that people from England colonized the area that became the US (which for the record, I think they ceased being "your" countrymen when they told Goergey Porgey to bugger off), exactly whose language is it? I would think the dominant dialect has the most influence on trends. That was ultimately the point of the links. Yes, we all speak English, but the American dialect is the most common and is so pervasive as to be changing the way that people in England speak and "American words" are being adopted by people in England. Besides, if we want to get technical, we are both speaking a deritative of German evolved from Anglo-Frisian.

I did find another picture though, which I think encapsulates our conversation perfectly. You can guess which of us is which...


At this point, you should just take a lesson from your fellow Brit Cornwallis. Unlike him I would hope an English lady would have the spine to surrender in person...
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:13 AM
 
Location: SE UK
14,810 posts, read 11,900,984 times
Reputation: 9789
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
Well, American English is a recognized dialect, just as British English is a recognized dialect. Yes, it is all "English" and originated in England, but the language has evolved. The dominant dialect of English is American English which claims 2/3rds of the worlds native speakers of English. So, regardless of the fact that people from England colonized the area that became the US (which for the record, I think they ceased being "your" countrymen when they told Goergey Porgey to bugger off), exactly whose language is it? I would think the dominant dialect has the most influence on trends. That was ultimately the point of the links. Yes, we all speak English, but the American dialect is the most common and is so pervasive as to be changing the way that people in England speak and "American words" are being adopted by people in England. Besides, if we want to get technical, we are both speaking a deritative of German evolved from Anglo-Frisian.

I did find another picture though, which I think encapsulates our conversation perfectly. You can guess which of us is which...


At this point, you should just take a lesson from your fellow Brit Cornwallis. Unlike him I would hope an English lady would have the spine to surrender in person...
By the way do you really think that English people say 'toodle pip'! I bet you also believe that Frenchmen all wear berets and cycle around all day on bicycles with onions around their necks dont you? So tell me 'what is this American dialect' that you proclaim 2/3rd of the world speaks? Can you give me some examples? By the way do you also honestly believe that the 'world' finds American cars 'cool' - I mean REALLY! I think you will find that the Italians can claim that mantle - nobody in Europe drives a chevrolet do they! Ferrari's, Lamborghini's, Aston Martin's, BMW's, Porche, now your talking cool car! And while you are talking to me in 'my' language you can also thank the British for giving you a computer and an internet to 'talk' to me with in the first place.
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Old 02-04-2013, 10:33 AM
 
14,780 posts, read 43,501,308 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by easthome View Post
By the way do you really think that English people say 'toodle pip'! I bet you also believe that Frenchmen all wear berets and cycle around all day on bicycles with onions around their necks dont you?
No, of course not. That would just be silly. They all wear jeans and t-shirts, call each other dude and tool around in cars while listening to Jay-Z.

Quote:
So tell me 'what is this American dialect' that you proclaim 2/3rd of the world speaks? Can you give me some examples?
I said that it was spoken by 2/3rds of the worlds native English speakers. If you want some examples, let's start with the Cambridge online dictionaries section on "American English"...

Home page for American English Dictionary - Cambridge Dictionary Online

A course in American English offered by the Carnegie Mellon University...

American English Speech | Open Learning Initiative

The American English Institute at Fresno State University...

Welcome to the American English Institute

You can also read this wikipedia article, since it appears you need a primer...

American English - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
By the way do you also honestly believe that the 'world' finds American cars 'cool' - I mean REALLY! I think you will find that the Italians can claim that mantle - nobody in Europe drives a chevrolet do they!
Ever hear of Vauxhall and Opel? That's what Chevy is called in the UK and continental Europe respectively. If you're in Australia, it's called Holden. However, more and more models are being sold as Chevy's depending on the market. The Corvette has always been sold as a Chevrolet. However, Ford is still Ford and last I checked pretty popular in Europe. Would this be a Fiesta (one of the most popular cars in Europe) in front of Parliament...I think it is.



Quote:
Ferrari's, Lamborghini's, Aston Martin's, BMW's, Porche, now your talking cool car!
How cool were Aston Martin's when they were owned by Ford? Are they still cool now that they are Indian? As for the rest, they're very cool, especially when they're hanging out with Corvette's, which are rather popular among folks in Europe interested in racing. Here we see a Z06 hanging out with his buddies at a castle in Belgium. Look's pretty cool to me. Oh we shouldn't forget Cadillac either, that's a CTS-V in silver right behind the Corvette.



Quote:
And while you are talking to me in 'my' language you can also thank the British for giving you a computer and an internet to 'talk' to me with in the first place.
Oh sure, Babbage and Turing invented the basic idea of what a computer is. However, I am on a PC which last I checked, the invention of that was credited to American Henry Roberts. As for the internet, once again, Americans, unless you want to give all the credit to Donald Davies, which would be ignoring the work of a dozen other scientists in the US.
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Old 02-04-2013, 05:23 PM
 
Location: SE UK
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Computer, Charles Babbage (English), HTML, Tim Berners Lee (English), electricity, Faraday (English), industrial revolution, (England), parliamentary democracy (England), Telephone, Alexandra Graham-Bell (Scottish), cars, Benz (Germany), Movies Lumiere (France), see also television, Trains, penicillin, the worlds sports I could go on! All of these things Americans will try and tell you are US inventions! Incidently Tim Berners Lee came up with more than HTML, he came up with the protocols for running a web server and he created the first web server and first web browser using an neXT (box). As for your comment about Vauxhall /Opals you have got to be joking!! Do you really think of those as 'cool' cars!! lol Let me guess also you believe that the English only wear jeans and T-shirts because of Americans right, you can thank the French for Denim for a start! Now stop playing up to the stereotype of a typical American!!
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Old 02-05-2013, 10:04 AM
 
14,780 posts, read 43,501,308 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by easthome View Post
Computer, Charles Babbage (English), HTML, Tim Berners Lee (English), electricity, Faraday (English), industrial revolution, (England), parliamentary democracy (England), Telephone, Alexandra Graham-Bell (Scottish), cars, Benz (Germany), Movies Lumiere (France), see also television, Trains, penicillin, the worlds sports I could go on! All of these things Americans will try and tell you are US inventions!
I never claimed the US invented any of those things. Though, you are stretching a bit if you want to claim people living in the US and who were US citizens based solely on where they were born and/or descended from. Bell may have been Scottish, but when he invented the telephone he did so as an American citizen working at his lab in Boston. Bell himself declared that "I am not one of those hyphenated Americans claiming allegiance to two countries, I am an American."

Many of those could also be disputed on the grounds of concept vs. reality. For example Babbage conceived of the idea of a computer, but he never built one. Turing is generally granted that recognition and yes, he is British. Television is also debatable. Baird is credited with creating the first working television system, but it was Farnsworth, an American that invented the first all electronic television and that is what became the first TV's. Baird's company sold TV's under license of Farnsworth's invention via RCA. Further, many of these inventions, in fact all of them, were created from the synthesis of ideas over time from various sources and inputs.

Quote:
Incidently Tim Berners Lee came up with more than HTML, he came up with the protocols for running a web server and he created the first web server and first web browser using an neXT (box).
I'll give you that the internet as we know it was conceived and theorized by the Brits, if you acknowledge that the first actual working network that later became the interent was built by Americans, whom had consulted and worked with Lee.

Quote:
As for your comment about Vauxhall /Opals you have got to be joking!! Do you really think of those as 'cool' cars!!
lol, most of them are not cool. However, you claimed that "no one drives Chevy's in Europe". That statement is simply untrue. Conveniently you also choose to focus on the more lackluster American brands in Europe and completely ignore Ford, which last I checked comprises around 10% of the total European car market.

Quote:
lol Let me guess also you believe that the English only wear jeans and T-shirts because of Americans right, you can thank the French for Denim for a start!
We already covered the rise of jeans.

Quote:
Now stop playing up to the stereotype of a typical American!!
I'll stop playing up the stereotype, albeit being a well sourced and factual one, when you admit the role of American culture in making English the international language it is. If we rewind all the way back to the beginning of our very entertaining exchange, the disagreement was solely over your stating that American culture has had little role in making English a lingua franca. I believe I have long ago supported that statement that American culture has had a primary role in making English so. Everything else has basically been banter centered around you discrediting everything American in a stereotypically British way while I defended it in a stereotypically American way. Of course, I actually took the time to link sources, discuss the history of certain trends, etc. while you just blustered and bluffed your way through. I refer you back to the image of Libby and Reagan.
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