Which even changed American History more, 9-11 or the crash of '08? (bomb, Great Britain)
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I felt very strongly after '08 that things would never be the same again; I'm sure that feeling is very widespread. Since history is the making of human minds; I think we unconsciously decided an era was over and will (probably unconsciously) make sure it happens that way.
Back to The Fourth Turning, the authors point out that it's not the event itself that changes everything, it's how we react to it. With today's mood, It's not difficult to imagine that history will soon be made... too many people literally expecting the end of the world.
It's strange to live in a time where history is being made almost weekly...
Oh come on. The recession of '08 ended in '09 by all accounts. What we are seeing now, the dismal economy and bad unemployment, is NOT really from the crash, I will let you determine what it is from to prevent the topic from going political. But I will say this - recessions come and go, they are cylical (occuring about every 7 or 8 years), and last about a year and a half. This has been the pattern since the great depression, this one was no different.
The ecomic mess of today is related to the recession yes, but their are other factors at play here including the globalization, politics, foreign economic impacts, entitlements, etc. What I am saying is that, if there was not a dramatic crash in 2008, we would still have the financial problems of today but it would look like a gradual declining slope instead of the drop.
Oh come on. The recession of '08 ended in '09 by all accounts. What we are seeing now, the dismal economy and bad unemployment, is NOT really from the crash, I will let you determine what it is from to prevent the topic from going political. But I will say this - recessions come and go, they are cylical (occuring about every 7 or 8 years), and last about a year and a half. This has been the pattern since the great depression, this one was no different.
The ecomic mess of today is related to the recession yes, but their are other factors at play here including the globalization, politics, foreign economic impacts, entitlements, etc. What I am saying is that, if there was not a dramatic crash in 2008, we would still have the financial problems of today but it would look like a gradual declining slope instead of the drop.
It isn't the event itself that causes all the turmoil, it's the world's reaction to it, which triggers far bigger events in a proverbial domino effect. You see it happen over and over again in history.
9/11 was the first time since the War of 1812 when the American continental homeland was attacked by outsiders.
The results of 9/11 started the social conditions that led to the Great Collapse of '08. It was a unique combination of a sudden attack, the most contested Presidential election of the 20th century, the growing divide between the rich and the middle class, and a lingering recession (the recession of 2000) that jointly created the social, political and financial divisions that are present now.
Americans have been pretty adept at dealing with all those things if they come one at a time. But getting them all at once doesn't happen often at all. Each of those things I mentioned were once great singular differences that were fought over fiercely; now, it is hard for a lot of us to even know where to start when contemplating them. Everything is big, serious, and tied to each other in a tight knot.
Hindsight, to me, says the 9/11 attacks were totally unexpected, even though a very few folks were sounding alarms. The concept of using a domestic airliner as a flying bomb was just unthinkable- terrorists were supposed to show up with trucks full of explosives, not a commuter flight from Boston. Airplanes were for highjacking, not weapons in themselves. We thought we already had effective airport security.
I think the '08 collapse was inevitable, and it was forseen by quite a few folks. The stock market lumped along dragging it's bottom for years; home mortgages were the one area of the economy where there was a lot of steady inherent value, so the derivatives market was honey for the bears. Unfortunately, most of the people who most understood the financial danger were the greatest participants in it- big money puts big blinders on even the most wise, especially if the experts think they can find a way out of the trouble they get into.
While this is a new thing for America, similar events have combined in the past in other places. Some of the other countries worked through their problems, others went to war, others went into revolution, and many did more than one thing at a time.
Last edited by banjomike; 09-11-2011 at 04:04 PM..
Oh come on. The recession of '08 ended in '09 by all accounts. What we are seeing now, the dismal economy and bad unemployment, is NOT really from the crash, I will let you determine what it is from to prevent the topic from going political.
We don't have to go political to answer this question. What's happening in today's economy IS an extension of the '08 meltdown. It is caused by the same syndrome that prolonged the Great Depression. You see, there is no less money today than there was in October of 2008. There was no less money in October of 2008 than there was in December of 1999.
The problem is that the money IS NOT MOVING; it is not in circulation. A healthy economy and strong employment figures both depend on money changing hands again and again and again and... It isn't.
That's what happened in the aftermath of the Crash of '29 -- that's what's happening today.
As a New Yorker I have to say both events of 9 11 and the crash of 08 happened both in my Hometown NYC. But which had a deeper impact on the country is 9 11 but the crash of 08 had a much more deeper penetrating impact on every single Americans. Americans lost thier homes, Suburban houoses are no longer popular for surbubanites which gave way to explosion of city dwellers as of late. Also in a bad economy people tend to become nomadic looking for homes and work, I think I read last year alone 10 million Americans moved to different states and counties and for many it was to find work and place to call thier own. As a New Yorker I witness the effects of both events. I see NYC rebuilt itself after 911 but everyone is under constant watch. Globally the attacks of 911 had much effect on the Western World and the middle east but not no where else. Parts Russia, China India have been dealing with Islamic extremism for decades. Not only that but in Central Asia India, China, RUssia and Iran have America in check in that part of the world. After the crash of 08 its been hard for people to find jobs, I had friends move to sunbelt states looking for work and homes and many met with success, here in NYC many WASPY Transplants moved to gentrified neighorhoods of Brooklyn, Queens and Manhattan and have no intentions on moving back to greener pastures due to expensive cost of living in the burbs like cars, gas and home heating etc. Also in the bad economy I withnessed employers have now look out for their own if your from a particular background you will not be hired. Employers have now become selective on hiring which and not on hiring based on merit.
While the Crash of '08 was (and continues to be) of great significance, and 9/11 was a catastrophe that is having incredible internal and external ramifications - I would still vote for neither one.
The American nation began a decided change in the 80's, and the Crash of '08 was an inevitable result of the economic and social attitudes proceeding from that decade. 9/11 was inspired by a U.S. foreign policy that was conceived in the Pleistocene era, and has been kept steadfastly in place the more the nation has moved to the Right.
Hopefully in a hundred years these two events will be seen as two of many results of major shifts in American life that had been underway for two decades already. Far more important in the long run was the emergence of the Right in the U.S. and the election of Ronald Reagan as president of the U.S.
In my mind, 9/11 was by far the more momentous event.
It changed the way we view the world and the world views us.
It got us into two wars which have thus far claimed the lives of over 6000 young Americans.
It made this country so scared that it voted for re-election a man who is going to go into the History books as one of the worst two or three POTUS's ever.
It allowed the aformentioned's Administration to usher in the egregiously-mistitled "Patriot Act" which forever robbed you guys of about half of your Constitutional Amendment Rights.
It showed the rest of the World a vulnerability and a naivete we posess, which other countries have exploited so as to knock us from our theretofore position as Top Dog. We may never regain that spot.
It took whatever enjoyment thereused to be out of flying!
9/11 was our Pearl Harbor.
The crash of '08 was not even a crash. It was just the beginning of a recession, of which we will climb out of in a couple more years.
'08 will be forgotten in 20 years, but 9/11 will be remembered for 120.
Look at it this way: How many times has our economy cycled through recession or market crashes? (Too many to count and remember.) How many times has our country been attacked?
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