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Old 10-26-2011, 09:53 PM
Status: "Only misdemeanors, Santa" (set 2 days ago)
 
Location: On a hill near a river
14,409 posts, read 12,305,237 times
Reputation: 5757

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackmccullough View Post
Let's see, is anyone keeping a count of the pro-Nazi, anti-semitic posters here?

I count Antlered Chamataka, jtur. . . any others?
I don't think they're pro-Nazi. (Anti-semitic? Who knows.)

But they are bitter about something. Darned if I know what it is.

Living in America maybe?

 
Old 10-26-2011, 10:06 PM
 
Location: Vermont
7,877 posts, read 5,013,698 times
Reputation: 6998
You would have a very hard time convincing me that anyone who tries so hard to minimize the crimes of the Nazis is not motivated by pro-Nazi sympathies.

Arguing that democracies ought to allow open discussion of all issues, even advocacy for Nazism, is another matter entirely. That ought to be allowed.

It's just that there is no good faith debate on the issue we're talking about, so the motivation must be something other than a concern for historical accuracy. What does that leave?
 
Old 10-26-2011, 10:09 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles area
9,347 posts, read 7,307,324 times
Reputation: 16553
Default Extremism

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal Dude View Post
Dresden deserved every bomb and then some. Make no mistake, those people were NAZI'S, peroid. They were all good and fine when it was Rotterdam, Warsaw, London, being terror bombed. They did not seem bothered by troops being at the gates of Moscow or the EINZATSGRUPPEN combing thru eastern Eruopa hunting for jews.
Well no, they weren't all Nazis, period. There were anti-Nazis among them, and because they lived in a totalitarian police state they knew they had better keep their opinions to themselves if they wanted to avoid prison or worse. And what about the children? Are they too, to be blamed? I would recommend Dance on the Volcano: A Teenage Girl in Nazi Germany by Renata Zerner; it is a personal memoir from a member of an anti-Nazi family which gives a good portrait of living in a police state.

I do realize that the deaths of civilians, including children, were unavoidable during World War II. It was absolutely necessary to bring the evil Nazi regime to an end, and to occupy the country in order to be sure that things were pointed in a better direction. And I am aware of the fact that Germany purposefully bombed civilians before the Allies did. But you have gone off the deep end. Dresden was not a legitimate military target and only your extreme view that every single German - old people, women, children, opponents of the regime - deserved to die can legitimize the Dresden raid.

This is one case where the end result was a good result: A stable, democratic, prosperous state has evolved which is not a threat to any of its neighbors and which has repudiated its Nazi past in unambiguous terms by, among other things, paying reparations to individual victims of the Nazis and to the state of Israel. (Contrast that behavior to that of post-war Japan). The extreme and punitive occupation you recommended (in a part of your post which I did not quote above) could have only increased and prolongued the bitterness - not good for the long term.
 
Old 10-26-2011, 10:41 PM
 
915 posts, read 1,200,535 times
Reputation: 724
Quote:
Originally Posted by j_k_k View Post
You mean respected academics like David Irving?

As for the Germans not starting WWII, surely you realize that it's a matter of when one considers the war to begin, and when one considers it a world war. What's your logic here? Blaming Britain and France for honoring their commitment to go to war over the Nazi invasion of Poland? The Americas and Africa weren't really in it yet except for Allied colonies along for the ride? Or are you perhaps arguing that Gleiwitz wasn't actually a Naujocks Nazi escapade, but an actual Polish assault?
Anyone who has done serious studying of WW2 knows that the war was started by a coalition of Roosevlet, Churchill, and Stalin. Hitler repeatedly held out his hand to England for peace. America had no reason to go to war against Germany because Germany didn't threaten America in any way. Hitler didn't need a war because Germany was out of their depression and doing great economically. All the war did was divert money that Germany wanted to use to build culturally etc. to the war effort. There couldn't be peace because we wouldn't let Germany have peace.

As far as England honoring her commintment to Poland what happened after the war ended? England didn't have any honor for Poland then. So who occupied Poland but the Soviet communists and Churchill didn't squeak a word about it.
 
Old 10-26-2011, 11:16 PM
 
Location: BOY-see
4,359 posts, read 7,004,174 times
Reputation: 4734
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angorlee View Post
Anyone who has done serious studying of WW2 knows that the war was started by a coalition of Roosevlet, Churchill, and Stalin. Hitler repeatedly held out his hand to England for peace. America had no reason to go to war against Germany because Germany didn't threaten America in any way. Hitler didn't need a war because Germany was out of their depression and doing great economically. All the war did was divert money that Germany wanted to use to build culturally etc. to the war effort. There couldn't be peace because we wouldn't let Germany have peace.
That's one of the most warped viewpoints I have read on the subject. Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin didn't invade Poland in the beginning (Stalin did later, of course). They didn't force Hitler to invade Poland (though Stalin was a conspirator). They also didn't force him to take Memel. They didn't force him to take Czechoslovakia apart (though they certainly helped him do so). They didn't force him to annex Austria, and they didn't force him to remilitarize the Rhineland.

You simply do not get to say "Anyone who has done serious studying..." and have that make your statement truth. In fact, it lowers your viewpoint's standing, because if there were really any support for what you were saying, you wouldn't need tactics like that. The short version is that you are here to blame bad deeds done by the losers on the victors. I'm curious. Did Roosevelt, Stalin and Churchill also cause the Holocaust (if you believe there actually was such a thing)?

I remember a group in this country that used to justify acts of violence by saying, "Well, seeing them people there, it provoked us. We just couldn't stand aside."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angorlee View Post
As far as England honoring her commintment to Poland what happened after the war ended? England didn't have any honor for Poland then. So who occupied Poland but the Soviet communists and Churchill didn't squeak a word about it.
Non sequitur, and you know it (or if not, the situation is more dire than I imagined). I didn't call England honorable in all matters Polish, and you know that, too, so kindly stop trying to warp my meaning and divert attention. I used the word 'honor' as a verb in the sense of 'keep one's commitment.' England declared war because it had said it would do so if Poland were invaded, and that's the commitment we were discussing, the one that brought them into the war. If you want to talk about honor or lack thereof on its own, fine, but please recognize the context of a word and don't come up with tangential bologna of this nature, and don't try to make it sound like I implied things I did not.

Then again, if you really are this determined to work up pity for the poor, abused, misunderstood Nazi regime, and to blame its horrendous deeds on every nation that actually did something to halt them, then maybe in your mind this makes sense. I don't think you will get very far with it, though.
 
Old 10-27-2011, 12:19 AM
 
Location: Detroit suburbs
177 posts, read 157,423 times
Reputation: 213
When I first started reading this thread I immediately thought that it must have been started by a troll just to whip people up. The fact that the OP disappeared never to return only reinforces my earlier suspicions that they had no real historical interest in this material.

That being said I am glad that the overall majority of posters greatly outnumber the obvious Nazi sympathizers and apologists who I strongly suspect were happily typing away at home in their freshly starched Nazi uniforms, snug in their beliefs and their overwhelming abilities to not let actual facts and research get in the way of their foregone conclusions.
 
Old 10-27-2011, 01:55 AM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
24,822 posts, read 28,775,670 times
Reputation: 11738
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
Your final sentence is starting to bely your true feelings on the subject by casting some amount of doubt on the abilities of Germans to tattoo people.
I could simply look at my great-aunt's arm, and tell you his doubts are unfounded. She mostly wears long sleeves to conceal her tattoo, but I'm sure she cannot hide the memories of that horrifying experience... memories including the destruction of her town in Poland, the transfer to Auschwitz where her family eventually perished, the abuse, starvation, and experimentation which left her infertile, and so on.

My great-uncle (her cousin) was serving in the US Army during WWII, and went to a recovery site to find our surviving European family members - all two of them. About 15 years after the war he committed suicide, which was mostly attributed to PTSD... just a hunch, but I imagine seeing those survivors played a big part in his trauma.

Holocaust deniers make me physically ill.
 
Old 10-27-2011, 06:49 AM
 
Location: Wherever women are
19,022 posts, read 14,521,744 times
Reputation: 11309
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
I don't think they're pro-Nazi. (Anti-semitic? Who knows.)

But they are bitter about something. Darned if I know what it is.

Living in America maybe?
Nothing bitter. Simply miffed that some illegal immigrants used the holocaust with arguable death tolls to displace millions of Palestinians.

I feel very strongly about stealing other people's property. For instance, if a gang shows up at my door and tells me that the house I bought and am raising my kids in belongs to them coz it's the exact location where God rained manna down from the sky one million years ago, the first reaction out of me would be ~~~~~~ "What the "

hehe. That pretty much sums my beef with Israel and their history. I get it. They have suffered a lot. But who would use the holocaust to perpetrate another holocaust on a different people? Did they ever learn from the Nazis that persecution is a blemish on society? Perhaps not.
 
Old 10-27-2011, 07:16 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
38,756 posts, read 39,297,963 times
Reputation: 28893
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
Silliness. Belgium's policies as a late colonial power are hardly germane to a discussion of the Dresden bombing. Broadening the conversation to include every instance of brutality ever committed anywhere by anyone hardly exculpates the Nazis' systematic murder of millions.
Please cite the studies showing that from 1900 to 1940 there was a huge DNA shift or mutation among the Belgians (and all other Allies), suddenly making them peaceful, innocent, compassionate people, which did not happen in the DNA of the Germans right across the border, where their vicious brutality was retained.
 
Old 10-27-2011, 07:20 AM
Yac
 
4,357 posts, read 3,718,186 times

And with the last post, this thread just "jumped the shark". I'm closing this before claims of moonmen controlling germans appear, or something equally ridiculous.
Yac.
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