WWII Japanese War Criminals (1990s, facts, events, slaves)

[Dd714]

Originally Posted by A Japanese in China

I am a Japanese citizen living in China with Chinese wife.
Nanjing massacre is certainly one of the most horrible crimes committed during the Second World War, and here in China I often feel the scars still remaining in the hearts of Chinese people including my wife.

But it is untrue that "the Japanese" denies the Nanking massacre, as asserted by some people on this discussion board.
I was taught about the Nanjing Massacre and other Japanese war criminals in middle school in Japan.
Actually, all the middle school history textbooks in Japan mention the Nanjing Massacre.

I read Iris Chang's "Rape of Nanking" a few years ago.
The description of the atrocity was impressive while I found many mistakes especially on the Japanese side, and I acknowledge that it was important in informing English-speaking world of that horrible incident.
But the later half of Chang's book, which claims that 'the Japanese as a nation has constantly denied the atrocity' is simply false.

....

If you want to get a more balanced picture of the Nanjing massacre, you should read Honda Katsuichi's "The Nanjing Massacre: A Japanese Journalist Confronts Japan's National Shame", Joshua Fogel's "The Nanjing Massacre in History and Historiography" or Bob Tadashi Wakabayashi's "The Nanking Atrocity 1937-38: Complicating the Picture".

Again, Nanking massacre is a horrible crime committed by the Imperial Japanese Army, and in Japan there unfortunately exists a minority opinion which denies it.
But the assumption (which is widely held here in China) that the mainstream Japanese opinion denies it is not true: the Japanese government acknowledged several times that it happened (though they did not make compensation to the victims), and all the Japanese school textbooks mention this incident.

Interesting viewpoint, and I can understand how unappreciated that is to be a Japanese in China. I was semi-amused to note when I turned on my TV at anytime of day or night, during a trip to Shanghai earlier in the year, that I would never fail to find a Chinese-made war film, with the Japanese portrayed as the brutal enemy and PRC forces as the heros (doubley amused, since Mao's communist forces left virtually all the fighting to Chaing Kai Chek's nationalist while they themselves holed up and regrouped).

I think Japan is slowly changing to one of unspoken realization, but you compare the Japanese attitude and historical treatment to WW2, to Germany. Germany has undergone a very complete process of introspective and outwardly displayed national shame for their part in the war, retributions paid, apologies made, and even such that the nazi swastika is illegal to display. Japan has yet to do that, and I think you hinted at why - there is a powerful minority of hard line conservatives in Japan that refuse to acknowledge it, or blatanly deny it. But, lets face it, even movies addressing the issue have been banned or censored. Having a Japanese politician making a half-hearted apology here or there, or devoting a paragraph to it in a textbook, will not cut it, I'm sorry. It has to be a national self realization - There has to be a national debate, as Germany has had, as the U.S. has had in terms of slavery and it's treatment of American Indians, as all free society's should have. It may in fact be too late, with most of your war veteran's from that age dead. But, until that happens, it will always be part of Japan's shame.

As far as Chang's book. You know some critics have picked apart the details, because admittadly it's based on testimonial evidence. The Japanese were just not as officient at documenting their attrocities as the German's and their mechanized killing apparatus. But that was never the point, arguing the details. The point was the impact. Needless to say, no one except the hardline Japanese minority that you mention cannot disagree that a massacre of inhuman proportions occured, and was committed, by Japanese.

[NJGOAT]

Originally Posted by A Japanese in China

I am a Japanese citizen living in China with Chinese wife.
Nanjing massacre is certainly one of the most horrible crimes committed during the Second World War, and here in China I often feel the scars still remaining in the hearts of Chinese people including my wife.

But it is untrue that "the Japanese" denies the Nanking massacre, as asserted by some people on this discussion board.
I was taught about the Nanjing Massacre and other Japanese war criminals in middle school in Japan.
Actually, all the middle school history textbooks in Japan mention the Nanjing Massacre.

Again, Nanking massacre is a horrible crime committed by the Imperial Japanese Army, and in Japan there unfortunately exists a minority opinion which denies it.
But the assumption (which is widely held here in China) that the mainstream Japanese opinion denies it is not true: the Japanese government acknowledged several times that it happened (though they did not make compensation to the victims), and all the Japanese school textbooks mention this incident.

If the government of Germany did not directly acknowledge nor apologize for the Holocaust for 50+ years after it occurred and then only gave a spoken statement on the 50th anniversary of Germany's surrender that they were "sorry for the suffering that was caused and hoped that those types of incidents would not happen again", then people would have a strong sense that "Germans" as a collective did not acknowledge or ever truly apologize for what happened. That view would only be reinforced if high ranking political figures in Germany spoke out and denied that it ever happened or that it wasn't nearly as bad as what people were making it out to be.

That is the general observed position of the Japanese government and why people draw the conclusions and get the impression that they do. Regardless of how the Japanese people feel personally, the government still dwells in ambiguity over all war crimes committed by Japan, not just the Rape of Nanking. The Japanese government as a collective has really only spoken of it once and that was at the 50th anniversary of the Japanese surrender in 1995. The Emperor and the Prime Minister both gave spoken apologies, but issued no formal statement on behalf of Japan and the Japanese people.

The ambiguity leaves people with the impression that the Japanese have been essentially forced to make such statements do to the political climate, but that there is no sincere feeling of guilt over what happened, or even straight out denial that it ever occurred, or worse still that it was somehow justified. Adding to that ambiguity is the inclusion of known war criminals of all classes in the Yasukuni Shrine. I don't pretend to fully understand Shinto and the concept of kami, but it would seem that the choice to include those persons is questionable.

Then we are left with the fact that the person who was arguably the largest war criminal went unpunished and has never truly addressed the issue, Hirohito. Certainly he had immense worth to the US in a post-war Japan, so we can chalk it up to American interest why he was never put on trial, but he also never addressed the atrocities in any real capacity. The current Emperor Akihito began issuing some statements of "remorse" after Hirohitos death, but they do seem rather hollow and politically motivated.

Basically, the world is left with the impression that the Japanese don't care and aren't remorseful because their government and the Emperor have never made a genuine attempt and high ranking political officials continue to deny or question whether it happened. If 90% of the Japanese people are truly sorry for what happened, then they need to leverage their government more to "make it right". It doesn't need to be reparations, but how about the Emperor issuing a formal declaration of apology on behalf of the Japanese people and mustering up the deepest bow that he can. That would go a long way towards changing peoples opinions.

[Mathguy]

Not to mention that Nanking was just one city for one period of time of a 10year or so occupation.

Death tolls for Chinese citizens is certainly in the many millions.

[Dd714]

Originally Posted by Mathguy

Not to mention that Nanking was just one city for one period of time of a 10year or so occupation.

Death tolls for Chinese citizens is certainly in the many millions.

I don't want to be too tough on the guy, as he came in with a valuable viewpoint even if we don't totally agree.

However. One other thing I wanted to pick apart was this comment by him:

"Again, Nanking massacre is a horrible crime committed by the Imperial Japanese Army, ..."

And maybe that is one issue right there for the poster "Japanese in China": The inability to articulate that Japan was involved, every Japanese citizen, instead using this seperate entity - the Imperial Japanese Army. The inability to accept responsibility as a culture and society at large. The attrocities were not, exclusively, committed by IJA. Where did these mysterious murderious beings come from? They were committed, more accuratly, by Japanese! The people of Japan, not some anonymous body of wayward soldiers. Where was the public outcry when Japanese newspapers were publicizing accounts of beheading contests? When starving american POWs were being used in Mistubishi plants in Japan itself? Sir, look at, if not your father, depending on age, your grandfather or grandmother perhaps? They are to blame, and you should have some tough questions for them...and yourself, and your culture. What is it in your culture, history, religion, and/or upbriging that brought out such inhumanity on such a mass scale? Until you address those questions, history is at risk of repeating itself.

[A Japanese in China]

1. I didn't say that the Japanese government did enough in apology (far less than enough, in my opinion), but I just informed you that it is wrong to assume (like some ppl here seemed to do) that the Japanese government has refused to acknowledge and make any apology.
It is one thing to deny claim and it is another to acknowledge and apologize but fail to come in terms with the victim.

2. Though it has become cliche to compare Germany and Japan (this kind of debate is often made even in Japan), I wonder whether this is totally fair to compare the Nazi Holocaust and Japanese wartime atrocities.
Holocaust was well-planned government policy of eliminating millions of people sorely due to the ethnic group they belong, while the Nanjing atrocity was a crime committed by the commanders and the soldiers who were on the spot and the Japanese government in Tokyo knew about it only after it happened.
I don't think the Japanese attitudes towards Nanjing and other atrocities are much different from German attitudes towards the German war crimes in Eastern Europe.

3. Imperial Japanese Army was an organ composed dominantly of the Japanese males (though technically speaking, it also included some Korean and Taiwanese officers and soldiers). I thought it was clear to anyone.

Originally Posted by Dd714

And maybe that is one issue right there for the poster "Japanese in China": The inability to articulate that Japan was involved, every Japanese citizen, instead using this seperate entity - the Imperial Japanese Army. The inability to accept responsibility as a culture and society at large. The attrocities were not, exclusively, committed by IJA. Where did these mysterious murderious beings come from? They were committed, more accuratly, by Japanese!

4. The mistakes in Chang's book are not always about the "details". Although it WAS not without significance when it first came out because of scarcity of English-language sources on this subject, I wonder whether one needs to read it NOW that there are some English-language books which are both less erroneous and equally vivid in depicting Nanjing.

[NJGOAT]

1. I didn't say that the Japanese government did enough in apology (far less than enough, in my opinion), but I just informed you that it is wrong to assume (like some ppl here seemed to do) that the Japanese government has refused to acknowledge and make any apology.
It is one thing to deny claim and it is another to acknowledge and apologize but fail to come in terms with the victim.

If we are going to look at it as a "spectrum of apology", then the situation becomes clearer. While the Japanese government, 50 years after it occurred, did acknowledge it and offer a spoken apology, it does seem rather insincere and being done out of pressure to acknowledge it rather than a desire to acknowledge it and atone for what was done. Totally absurd examples, but it helps make it clearer I think.

My son punches his sister during an argument. I then make my son apologize to his sister and he utters a "sorry" under his breath. Was he really sorry? No. Did he really feel remorseful for his actions? No. Did he still feel that what he did was justified? Yes. Did he only apologize because he was being forced to? Yes.

My son is Japan when it comes to the issue of war crimes and merely saying hollow words 50 years later really isn't enough. There is no collective effort from the emperor down through the government to truly acknowledge and apologize for what was done.

2. Though it has become cliche to compare Germany and Japan (this kind of debate is often made even in Japan), I wonder whether this is totally fair to compare the Nazi Holocaust and Japanese wartime atrocities.
Holocaust was well-planned government policy of eliminating millions of people sorely due to the ethnic group they belong, while the Nanjing atrocity was a crime committed by the commanders and the soldiers who were on the spot and the Japanese government in Tokyo knew about it only after it happened.
I don't think the Japanese attitudes towards Nanjing and other atrocities are much different from German attitudes towards the German war crimes in Eastern Europe.

Whether the murders were part of an industrialized government plan or committed by portions of the nations military without prior directive is immaterial. The murders were still conducted by the representatives of that nation and all people of that nation bear the collective guilt of what happened, if for nothing more than allowing a situation to exist where such a thing could take place. I can almost guarantee you that no one in Tokyo was devastated over the actions of the IJA in China in relation to murders of civilians.

Further, it is rather difficult to justify a statement that would say there was a functional and real difference between the Japanese government at the time and the Japanese military. The Imperial General Headquarters was as much the government as the civilian government was. Some of the civilian government officials may have been aghast at what was done, but they certainly didn't have the power to change it and were afraid to speak out about it, because the military was the government and its agents were operating under the authority of the emperor.

Hitler may have directly ordered the murder of millions during the Holocaust, but Hirohito was no better when he endorsed by lack of action what the IJA was doing in China. He didn't need to sign or give an order to do it, the fact he allowed it to happen without taking action makes him guilty. This is especially true now that the concept of Hirohito as a puppet has been pretty well debunked.

[nightbird47]

Originally Posted by NJGOAT

If we are going to look at it as a "spectrum of apology", then the situation becomes clearer. While the Japanese government, 50 years after it occurred, did acknowledge it and offer a spoken apology, it does seem rather insincere and being done out of pressure to acknowledge it rather than a desire to acknowledge it and atone for what was done. Totally absurd examples, but it helps make it clearer I think.

My son punches his sister during an argument. I then make my son apologize to his sister and he utters a "sorry" under his breath. Was he really sorry? No. Did he really feel remorseful for his actions? No. Did he still feel that what he did was justified? Yes. Did he only apologize because he was being forced to? Yes.

My son is Japan when it comes to the issue of war crimes and merely saying hollow words 50 years later really isn't enough. There is no collective effort from the emperor down through the government to truly acknowledge and apologize for what was done.



Whether the murders were part of an industrialized government plan or committed by portions of the nations military without prior directive is immaterial. The murders were still conducted by the representatives of that nation and all people of that nation bear the collective guilt of what happened, if for nothing more than allowing a situation to exist where such a thing could take place. I can almost guarantee you that no one in Tokyo was devastated over the actions of the IJA in China in relation to murders of civilians.

Further, it is rather difficult to justify a statement that would say there was a functional and real difference between the Japanese government at the time and the Japanese military. The Imperial General Headquarters was as much the government as the civilian government was. Some of the civilian government officials may have been aghast at what was done, but they certainly didn't have the power to change it and were afraid to speak out about it, because the military was the government and its agents were operating under the authority of the emperor.

Hitler may have directly ordered the murder of millions during the Holocaust, but Hirohito was no better when he endorsed by lack of action what the IJA was doing in China. He didn't need to sign or give an order to do it, the fact he allowed it to happen without taking action makes him guilty. This is especially true now that the concept of Hirohito as a puppet has been pretty well debunked.

Wouldn't let me rep you so here's a +10

This was exactly the comparison I had thought of. Kids get forced to say their sorry all the time, but just say it because they had to. Real understanding only happens when a kid or a nation is willing to look at the reality and accept that it was wrong, because that is how things don't happen again.

[X14Freak]

Originally Posted by Dd714

I don't want to be too tough on the guy, as he came in with a valuable viewpoint even if we don't totally agree.

However. One other thing I wanted to pick apart was this comment by him:

"Again, Nanking massacre is a horrible crime committed by the Imperial Japanese Army, ..."

And maybe that is one issue right there for the poster "Japanese in China": The inability to articulate that Japan was involved, every Japanese citizen, instead using this seperate entity - the Imperial Japanese Army. The inability to accept responsibility as a culture and society at large. The attrocities were not, exclusively, committed by IJA. Where did these mysterious murderious beings come from? They were committed, more accuratly, by Japanese! The people of Japan, not some anonymous body of wayward soldiers. Where was the public outcry when Japanese newspapers were publicizing accounts of beheading contests? When starving american POWs were being used in Mistubishi plants in Japan itself? Sir, look at, if not your father, depending on age, your grandfather or grandmother perhaps? They are to blame, and you should have some tough questions for them...and yourself, and your culture. What is it in your culture, history, religion, and/or upbriging that brought out such inhumanity on such a mass scale? Until you address those questions, history is at risk of repeating itself.

Should Americans be blamed for the atrocities committed in the Philippines? Should Americans be blamed for killing more Koreans in the Korean War than the Japanese killed in their 35 year occupation? Should Americans be held responsible for all the deaths in the Vietnam War? Every Japanese citizen was NOT involved in the atrocities any more than every American is involved in the horrific crimes committed in any of America's wars. The poster doesn't have to answer for anything and neither does any Japanese person born after the war. There is nothing really unique about Japanese atrocities, some of the atrocities committed by child soldiers in Sierra Leone/Liberia/Congo that happened in the 90s make the things that happened in Nanking look like child's play.

[Dd714]

Originally Posted by X14Freak

Should Americans be blamed for the atrocities committed in the Philippines? Should Americans be blamed for killing more Koreans in the Korean War than the Japanese killed in their 35 year occupation? Should Americans be held responsible for all the deaths in the Vietnam War? Every Japanese citizen was NOT involved in the atrocities any more than every American is involved in the horrific crimes committed in any of America's wars. The poster doesn't have to answer for anything and neither does any Japanese person born after the war. There is nothing really unique about Japanese atrocities, some of the atrocities committed by child soldiers in Sierra Leone/Liberia/Congo that happened in the 90s make the things that happened in Nanking look like child's play.

The fact that we continue to discuss and debate what you call american "attrocities", in a primarily american forum, while the same would be unheard of in Japan and Japanese forums, IS the point my friend.
And yes, the Japanese attrocities were unique in history, as was well supported in Chang's book - in its lack of motive, it's personal brutality and sadistic nature, and its scale. I suggest that you do not know of what you talk about when you say "makes nanking look like child's play". In fact that is a rather tasteless, ignorant remark.

[Mathguy]

Originally Posted by A Japanese in China

I don't think the Japanese attitudes towards Nanjing and other atrocities are much different from German attitudes towards the German war crimes in Eastern Europe.

I don't quite know which is worse.

The centrally planned extermination by the Germans.....

Or that nanjing was just one glaring example of common behavior throughout areas under Japanese control.

It also went on in China for 10 years.

In fairness, one reason Japan is hounded on the topic is that it did happen during the media age. We don't exactly have news footage of Mongol Hordes pillaging or Romans crushing resistance in England and so forth.