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Old 02-20-2012, 10:41 AM
 
Location: South FL
5,528 posts, read 7,464,009 times
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I was having a formal conversation with this Black Nationalist on another forum about the Moors in Spain. He said the ORIGINAL Moors in Spain were Black, not light skinned like how they're pictured in most history books and sites. He recommended me this book called: The Story of the Moors in Spain, written by a White British called Stanley Lane-Poole.

What is everyone's take on this? has anyone heard something like this before? Because I find it hard to believe.
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Old 02-20-2012, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
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There was, of course, some mixture of the Berbers from the North African Maghreb, and the black Africans from south of the Sahara, whom they enslaved. Moors at the time would reflect this impure ancestry. There would be varying degrees of blackness among individuals, much like the Tuaregs today.

Some of the influential Moors in Spain were no doubt darker than others, but would more likely get their coloration from their y-DNA that they share with Somalis, rather than any ancestry shared with any African Americans.

The term "Black Moors" does not necessarily imply the the Moors who occupied Spain were black:

The "Moors" were not a distinct or self-defined people or ethnicity. Medieval and early modern Europeans applied the name primarily to the Berbers, but also at various times to Arabs and Muslim Iberians and West Africans from Mali and Niger who had been absorbed into the Almoravid dynasty. Mainstream scholars observed in 1911 that "The term 'Moors' has no real ethnological value.
--- Wikipedia

Last edited by jtur88; 02-20-2012 at 12:39 PM..
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:50 PM
 
Location: South FL
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A wikipedia source? .
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Old 02-21-2012, 01:32 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,618 posts, read 86,592,874 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackTheRipper View Post
A wikipedia source? .
One black nationalist you chatted with in a discussion forum is a more authoritative and/or objective source?

Every statement in a Wikipedia article is footnoted, indicating an authoritative source for the material. Which, in the case of the one I quoted, are:

^ Ross Brann, "The Moors?", Andalusia, New York University. Quote: "Andalusi Arabic sources, as opposed to later Mudéjar and Morisco sources in Aljamiado and medieval Spanish texts, neither refer to individuals as Moors nor recognize any such group, community or culture."
^ Ivan Van Sertima, Golden Age of the Moor, Volume 11
^ "Moors", Britannica Encyclopedia (1911), p. 811


"Nothing is true, Everything is permitted." --- JackTheRipper

You asked me for my take on this. You got it. Have a nice day.

Last edited by jtur88; 02-21-2012 at 01:41 AM..
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Old 02-21-2012, 01:34 AM
 
9,961 posts, read 17,437,611 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackTheRipper View Post
I was having a formal conversation with this Black Nationalist on another forum about the Moors in Spain. He said the ORIGINAL Moors in Spain were Black, not light skinned like how they're pictured in most history books and sites. He recommended me this book called: The Story of the Moors in Spain, written by a White British called Stanley Lane-Poole.

What is everyone's take on this? has anyone heard something like this before? Because I find it hard to believe.
The Almoravids and Almohads were Berber dynasties(The term Moors means very little in retrospect). I'd think that the Spanish Muslims would've been very similar to the current ethnic groups of Morocco. Travelling around Morocco where people claiming Berber heritage make up close to half of the population, I found a lot of people, especially those identifying as Berbers, to be lighter-skinned than many Arabs. Those of Saharan African heritage and darker skin are more common south of the Atlas mountains, though you'll see this influence throughout the country. Just like anywhere the groups have mixed over the centuries--at this point Berber is more of language/cultural group rather than ethnic group with a very defined look. But I'd assume that it would've been similar even in Medieval Spain.

Some people seem to have a need to try to prove that certain historical kingdoms were a certain race--when the whole idea of racial classification can mean little when you have many ethnic groups intermingling.

Last edited by Deezus; 02-21-2012 at 01:43 AM..
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Old 02-21-2012, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
8,087 posts, read 9,776,680 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackTheRipper View Post
I was having a formal conversation with this Black Nationalist on another forum about the Moors in Spain. He said the ORIGINAL Moors in Spain were Black, not light skinned like how they're pictured in most history books and sites. He recommended me this book called: The Story of the Moors in Spain, written by a White British called Stanley Lane-Poole.

What is everyone's take on this? has anyone heard something like this before? Because I find it hard to believe.

This means warped interpretation of history. I recall many a conversation with co-workers who were Black Nationalists. I coined the phrase Bizarro Man/Men after our sessions. You will understand if you know the origins of Bizarro Man.

Kovert will hopefully come in and answer definitively on this one. He is our Man in North-West-Central Africa.
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Old 02-22-2012, 10:26 AM
 
Location: South FL
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Originally Posted by Felix C View Post
This means warped interpretation of history. I recall many a conversation with co-workers who were Black Nationalists. I coined the phrase Bizarro Man/Men after our sessions. You will understand if you know the origins of Bizarro Man.

Kovert will hopefully come in and answer definitively on this one. He is our Man in North-West-Central Africa.
This would be interesting.

I just don't take sources from wikipedia serious enough, since many articles can be/are edited by anyone.
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Old 02-22-2012, 11:19 AM
 
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The berbers than came with the berber chieftain Ṭāriq ibn Ziyād al-Layti (in Arabic, طارق بن زياد, Tarik en the traditional Spanish transcription in 711 and landed in Gib al Tarik (Gibraltar) were berbers, people from the Rif. Similar to the Berbers you find in rural Morrocco or to Lybians. Such people are not African in origin, they came from the Middle East some 5.000 years ago and moved to Europe during Mesolithic and Neolithic times when the Sahara dried up.

Blacks arrived in that area much later, during the XVI and XVIIth century as slaves brought during the Sultanates. The army of Al Tarik also included Visigoths. Modern day North Africans you find nowdays in urban areas in Morrocco are different since many are mixed with blacks.

Almohads and Almoravids were people from the Rif. Blacks in Muslim Spain or Christian Spain were a rarity, they generally were owned by rich people in the Christian North or they were Mercenaries, such as the famous Black Guard of the Almohad caliph Muhammad al-Nasir during the battle of Navas de Tolosa in 1215 (the largest battle in Europe at that time, a true "D day" for the Reconquest).

Navarrese knights defeated the Black Guard (called Imselins, from Senegal) who had been chained together to protect the Caliph, so Navarre changed his coat from a black eagle (the Arrano beltza) to a golden chain of eight links with an emerald in its center on a red background, the chain representing the Black Guard and the emerald symbolizing the caliph (the emerald was embedded in his kurah).

I guess that those were the only famous blacks during the Reconquest. There were also blacks in the Christian side, they were "suntuary" symbols. Any noblemen that had some black at their service was presumed to be extravagantly rich. Some small landed aristocracy had black slaves to scare the hell out of serfs, to make them pay.

Last edited by Lechuzo1; 02-22-2012 at 11:57 AM..
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Old 02-22-2012, 12:00 PM
 
9,961 posts, read 17,437,611 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lechuzo1 View Post
The berbers than came with the berber chieftain Ṭāriq ibn Ziyād al-Layti (in Arabic, طارق بن زياد, Tarik en the traditional Spanish transcription in 711 and landed in Gib al Tarik (Gibraltar) were berbers, people from the Rif. Similar to the Berbers you find in rural Morrocco or to Lybians. Such people are not African in origin, they came from the Middle East some 5.000 years ago and moved to Europe during Mesolithic and Neolithic times when the Sahara dried up.

Blacks arrived in that area much later, during the XVI and XVIIth century as slaves brought during the Sultanates. The army of Al Tarik also included Visigoths. Modern day North Africans you find nowdays in urban areas in Morrocco are different since many are mixed with blacks.

Almohads and Almoravids were people from the Rif. Blacks in Muslim Spain or Christian Spain were a rarity, they generally were owned by rich people in the Christian North or they were Mercenaries, such as the famous Black Guard of the Almohad caliph Muhammad al-Nasir during the battle of Navas de Tolosa in 1215 (the largest battle in Europe at that time, a true "D day" for the Reconquest).

Navarrese knights defeated the Black Guard (called Imselins, from Senegal) who had been chained together to protect the Caliph, so Navarre changed his coat from a black eagle (the Arrano beltza) to a golden chain of eight links with an emerald in its center on a red background, the chain representing the Black Guard and the emerald symbolizing the caliph (the emerald was embedded in his kurah).

I guess that those were the only famous blacks during the Reconquest. There were also blacks in the Christian side, they were "suntuary" symbols. Any noblemen that had some black at their service was presumed to be extravagantly rich. Some small landed aristocracy had black slaves to scare the hell out of serfs, to make them pay.
Thanks for that very informative post. That makes sense--and I thought that the Berbers would've been the predominant ethic group in Muslim Spain.
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Old 02-22-2012, 12:23 PM
 
6 posts, read 9,807 times
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[quote=jtur88;23063582]There was, of course, some mixture of the Berbers from the North African Maghreb, and the black Africans from south of the Sahara, whom they enslaved. Moors at the time would reflect this impure ancestry. There would be varying degrees of blackness among individuals, much like the Tuaregs today.

-------

They were no influential "moors" (Berbers) in Islamics Spain except for Tarik, that died in very strange circunstances in 720. Leaders were Arabs (Middle East), the Omeyans, Adderammans, Nazaries, etc.

The invading army of "rifeños" or berbers was not superior to 10.000. The rest were Visigoth turncoats.

When King Roderick received the news that a "very small army of foreigners aided by traitors" landed near Tariff, he did not take it very seriously"...Roderick had many enemies....and Visigoths were exterminating Jews..so all their enemies contacted Tarik.

Rifeños or berbers had no subsaharan influence at that time, it was another world back then. They had a Middle Eastern origin.
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