Where or when was this ?

[hornet67]

Early war photos for sure; the soldiers on the bridge are wearing either m38 or m41 sidecaps. The peaked m43 cap replaced them, and is the primary headgear seen in the field in the last two years of the war.
Hard to say if the location is in the West, such as France in 1940, or early in Operation Barbarossa in 1941.
The large letter G on the truck's rear leads me to believe it's part of Panzerguppe Guderian, which existed both in the latter stages of the French Campaign, and the early stages of Barbarrossa.
I will guess the photos date from roughly June, 1940, to August, 1941.
However, the one photo includes obvious civilian autos in the background, and since there were very few in the USSR, I will venture France as the location.

[NJGOAT]

Early war photos for sure; the soldiers on the bridge are wearing either m38 or m41 sidecaps. The peaked m43 cap replaced them, and is the primary headgear seen in the field in the last two years of the war.

I definitely agree that it's early war based on the uniforms and that's a good pickup on the caps.

Hard to say if the location is in the West, such as France in 1940, or early in Operation Barbarossa in 1941.

Again, you've made me think...

The large letter G on the truck's rear leads me to believe it's part of Panzerguppe Guderian, which existed both in the latter stages of the French Campaign, and the early stages of Barbarossa.

Good pickup on the letter "G". The ones I have seen previously were a lot more discernable, but we are looking at a 70+ year old photo of the back of a truck, lol. While the markings continued into Russia they were first used in France as you said. I wish we could see the front of a tank, because that would definitely confirm it.

I will guess the photos date from roughly June, 1940, to August, 1941.
However, the one photo includes obvious civilian autos in the background, and since there were very few in the USSR, I will venture France as the location.

Good look on the civilian cars. Looking at it closer, they look French to me. Either a Hotchkiss 680 or a Citroen 7CV. They could also be a Ford Model C "Eifel or maybe even a Mercedes 220, it's just not possible to really tell since the rear is covered up. Obviously if they are French, then it would have to be Eastern Front. If they were Ford or Mercedes, then they could be at anytime. The Germans used so many different cars it's hard to tell.

When you said you thought it was a Guderian "G" and possibly France, I thought of the Battle of Sedan and the crossing of the Meuse. Lo and behold here is a known photo of the bridge over the Meuse complete with Panzer II's in the background...



That bridge and the terrain looks very similar to what was in the fourth photo, but that photo was from a different angle and further back. However, it's still not definitive as that was the standard engineer built bridge design the Germans used.

So, new conclusions time. If the units in the pictures are in fact Guderians, his forces didn't cross the Daugava and the other rivers were much smaller than the one shown in the picture. However, his forces did cross the Meuse and that seems to fit the picture. So, assuming they were all from the same time period and the Guderian ID is correct, the pictures are probably from France in 1940.

If the Guderian ID isn't correct, then the pictures are most likely early Barbarossa. What we can tell of the markings on the units would support either time period. I think the clincher in this case is whether or not the photo of the crashed Il-4 was part of the same series of pictures. We know for sure that there weren't any Il-4's in France, so that would place all of this firmly on the Eastern Front in the early stages of Barbarossa.

[Glucorious]

Originally Posted by Felix C

I think you need to get over to axishistory forums and post these.



The hardcore folk are there.

I didn't want to post the pictures all over the Internet.

I see that there's no consensus. I honestly don't know where that is. I figured that, since they built a bridge, it had to be some rural area in or near Russia.

[NJGOAT]

Originally Posted by Glucorious

I didn't want to post the pictures all over the Internet.

I see that there's no consensus. I honestly don't know where that is. I figured that, since they built a bridge, it had to be some rural area in or near Russia.

Bridges like the one in your picture were built over just about every river. The first thing the defenders do is blow up the bridges over water obstacles to slow down the enemies advance.

I think it all comes down to whether or not the photo of the plane was part of the same series of pictures taken at the same time....

If it is, then the pictures are most definitely of the Eastern Front in the early days of Barbarossa. Like I said, there are only a few major rivers that were crossed and the one in the picture is wide and to me that means the Dvina in Latvia. That gives us a pretty specific time and place and a general idea of the units in the pictures.

If the plane photo was not part of this set, then I think hornet was pretty dead on about it being in France in 1940 during the invasion. To me that means the Meuse River crossing and the units are most likely part of Guderians panzer column.

Do you have any other pictures from these sets that you would want to post? It may help narrow it down a little more.

[Glucorious]

Originally Posted by NJGOAT

Bridges like the one in your picture were built over just about every river. The first thing the defenders do is blow up the bridges over water obstacles to slow down the enemies advance.

I guess this depends on where it was. When they suddenly invaded the country, I doubt there was enough time or enough resources to quickly blow up all the bridges.

I think it all comes down to whether or not the photo of the plane was part of the same series of pictures taken at the same time....

If it is, then the pictures are most definitely of the Eastern Front in the early days of Barbarossa. Like I said, there are only a few major rivers that were crossed and the one in the picture is wide and to me that means the Dvina in Latvia. That gives us a pretty specific time and place and a general idea of the units in the pictures.

If the plane photo was not part of this set, then I think hornet was pretty dead on about it being in France in 1940 during the invasion. To me that means the Meuse River crossing and the units are most likely part of Guderians panzer column.

A Russian plane shot down in France?

Do you have any other pictures from these sets that you would want to post? It may help narrow it down a little more.

Not really. I think I still have 1 or 2, but you only see Wehrmacht soldiers and nothing else that would hint at the location.

Thank you

[NJGOAT]

I guess this depends on where it was. When they suddenly invaded the country, I doubt there was enough time or enough resources to quickly blow up all the bridges.

It does depend. In the case of France, the French Air Force and RAF bombed the bridges over the Meuse and shelled them with artillery. They couldn't destroy them all, but they damaged enough to force the Germans to build bridges over the river, like the one in the picture I posted.

On the Eastern Front, the same thing happened. The Russians tried to blow up as many bridges as possible, either by bombing them or hitting them with artillery or even placing charges. The Russians were pretty succesful at this. On top of the destruction of the bridges, the Germans also faced a situation where many bridges that were still intact were not capable of handling the weight of the tanks and trucks.

Basically, destroyed bridges were a pretty common issue they had to deal with.

A Russian plane shot down in France?

We know that is an impossibility, but the point would be whether or not those pictures were from the same set or not. If we take them as a collective then it's definitely Eastern Front.

Not really. I think I still have 1 or 2, but you only see Wehrmacht soldiers and nothing else that would hint at the location.

There probably isn't much more we could discern from the uniforms that wasn't already picked out.

Thank you

Thank you for sharing.