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That's not so. For 2000 years, Jews all over the world have ended Passover with the phrase, "Next year in Jerusalem."
True... but I think most Americans don't understand that in 1895, there was a tiny number of Jews in Palestine. The large Jewish populaton that became the nation of Israel in 1948 immigrated there between 1895 and 1948. Jews may hae been ending Passover with a phrase that recalled their unforgettable historic homeland in 1100, 1550, 1850, etc., but they weren't warring with the inhabitants of the land at that time, pressing a claim of ownership. That's a basic fact that many Americans don't know and need to know when trying to understand the nature of the conflict.
True... but I think most Americans don't understand that in 1895, there was a tiny number of Jews in Palestine. The large Jewish populaton that became the nation of Israel in 1948 immigrated there between 1895 and 1948. Jews may hae been ending Passover with a phrase that recalled their unforgettable historic homeland in 1100, 1550, 1850, etc., but they weren't warring with the inhabitants of the land at that time, pressing a claim of ownership. That's a basic fact that many Americans don't know and need to know when trying to understand the nature of the conflict.
They couldn't return, so it's unfair to characterize their non-habitation for 2000 years as not wanting to or not claiming the Promised Land as their own.
1. Yes he was, otherwise he wouldn't have been considering Argentina for the purpose as well, that's A and B - if his eyes were so firmly set on Palestine and Palestine alone, why would his movement receive an offer from Britain to settle in Uganda instead?
2. Yes, most early Zionists were secularist, but not all of them. However the question remains, why Uganda as an option has been rejected and Palestine was voted as the ultimate goal for settlement? What were the "myths" behind this decision and why would Great Britain had to go along with Jewish myths, when Uganda was a much easier solution for G.B.?
( The fact that ""religious Jews" moved in to Palestine later" or that "the religious are still not the majority of the Israeli population" is really unimportant as I've already mentioned earlier.)
The fact remains that Jewish settlement in Israel was created on religious ground ( meaning the only proof that Palestine was their historic homeland was in the Bible,) otherwise what would be the ground for such relocation?
Again - they occupied the land BECAUSE of the proof that existed only in religious book, but to RULE in Israel - that they couldn't do, because that was not intention of Great Britain at that time, who had to watch its own political game with Arabs.
Israel ( as a state) began as a direct outcome of the WWII and its creation was in no way supported by "European colonialist," but Joseph Stalin himself.
Modern Italy does not create a major controversy in the world that modern Israel does ( as it was duly predicted in the bible as well by the way,) so of course you have to look at the root of this controversy and to go back in time in order to understand it.
Do your own research, Erasure. Herzl had a strong preference for Palestine. That's a clear, historical fact. Other areas were considered, and he tried to seem open to other possibilities, but he knew it had to be Palestine. (He wrote a passage comparing and contrasting Palestine and Argentina as possible locations, but it was clear which he preferred.)
They couldn't return, so it's unfair to characterize their non-habitation for 2000 years as not wanting to or not claiming the Promised Land as their own.
Why couldn't they have returned in 1750? They could have - they just lacked the political will to do so. Sometimes my heart longs to go see the old country where my ancestors came from for myself, but I don't really plan to emigrate back there.
I'm not trying to invalidate the Jewish claim to Israel. I am just trying to ground it in something more substantial than an ancient mythological claim. Jewish Israelis have been occupying the land since 1900. The state of Israel has as much right to exist as the state of New Mexico. If the Navajo were blowing up the white inhabitants of that state and saying they were going to drive them into the Gulf of Mexico, I would be on the side of the Americans, as I am on the side of the Jews.
I just want to shed some light on the real history of Israel -- not the fabled... Jacob and Easau nonsense.
Do your own research, Erasure. Herzl had a strong preference for Palestine. That's a clear, historical fact. Other areas were considered, and he tried to seem open to other possibilities, but he knew it had to be Palestine. (He wrote a passage comparing and contrasting Palestine and Argentina as possible locations, but it was clear which he preferred.)
What research? Herzl was a secular Jew that's why he could consider something else, other than Palestine. ( And that's why Britain sent an offer of Uganda, because they knew that Zionism had not-so-religeous roots to it.)
But obviously Herzl preferred Palestine to anything else, because it was only logical at end.
What research? Herzl was a secular Jew that's why he could consider something else, other than Palestine. ( And that's why Britain sent an offer of Uganda, because they knew that Zionism had not-so-religeous roots to it.) But obviously Herzl preferred Palestine to anything else, because it was only logical at end.
We agree. The nation of Israel wouldn't have been nearly as successful in any other place. At the end of the day, it had to be Palestine. (It was never considered, but I always wish the United States could have convinced them to settle the western territories. I envision a sort of Jewish Utah out there... the dates work.. it would have been very good for us to have a prosperous Jewish state, and it would have been good for the Jews to be someplace safe. After their disastrous time in Europe, it's a shame they still have to fight for their safety.)
And in the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed ( Abraham’s ) have I ( God ) given this land, from the river of Egypt ( Nile ) unto the great river, the river Euphrates;
Genesis 15:18
( So what Palestinian Arabs are saying in response to Jews in context of their own religion and teachings of their prophet, only makes sense.)
You are entitled to believe whatever you want to believe about the Bible, but don't you think a discussion where we try to puzzle out the mind of God is more appropriate on the Religion Forum? We can have a very fruitful discussion about the historical relationship between the Jews and Palestinians without using the G word.
You are entitled to believe whatever you want to believe about the Bible, but don't you think a discussion where we try to puzzle out the mind of God is more appropriate on the Religion Forum? We can have a very fruitful discussion about the historical relationship between the Jews and Palestinians without using the G word.
WestCobb, you are missing the point.
You can have fruitful discussions about anything you like avoiding religious aspect when you are talking about post-Christian cultures, but it's a totally different matter when you are talking about Israel. You can't have "fruitful discussion" there without bringing the issue of religion, in the same manner as you can't talk about Saudi Arabia for example without speaking about Islam.
It simply doesn't make much sense, ( even though today Israel seems to be relatively secular state.)
And no, I don't go to Religion forum, as much as I don't go to church or try to "puzzle out the mind of God."
However I can't ignore things that are quite obvious, and advise you to not to ignore them as well.
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