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Old 05-16-2012, 01:54 PM
 
Location: St. Augustine
9,258 posts, read 11,847,924 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulhall View Post
There were some very brave regiments from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. .

Northern Ireland didn't exist at the time and British troops were recruited from all over Ireland, indeed the Regular Army had more regiments recruited in Catholic parts of Ireland than in Protestant parts with the Royal Irish Fusliers being a "mixed" regiment raised in both Catholic and Protestant counties. (My grandfather, a Catholic, was an Old Contempible in the 1st Battalion of the RIF, and went into Belgium with the BEF in 1914)

Several Irish regiments of the British Army were disbanded in 1922 when their recruiting grounds became part of the Irish Free State.

An interesting note; during WW II more men from the neutral Free State served in the British forces than did men from Northern Ireland.
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Old 05-16-2012, 06:23 PM
Status: "I've been good, Santa" (set 13 days ago)
 
Location: On a hill near a river
14,401 posts, read 12,279,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulhall View Post
There were some very brave regiments from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. A better term would be Great Britain and Ireland, the British Isles (a georgraphic term) or indeed just Britain or the UK.

In fact the British Empire or Commonwealth of Nations would probably be a more apt discription, as there were also regiments fighting for Britain from most countries of Empire.

England is not a country, it is part of the UK, to use the term England is like using one of the states that makes up the US or indeed Canada rather then the nation.
Thanks. I'm aware of the difference between England and Great Britain / UK.

(And of the likelihood of the approaching disintegration of the latter...)

Last edited by Yeledaf; 05-16-2012 at 06:36 PM..
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Old 05-16-2012, 06:32 PM
Status: "I've been good, Santa" (set 13 days ago)
 
Location: On a hill near a river
14,401 posts, read 12,279,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
What you are missing is how they gained that numerical advantage. The Russians signed an armistice in early 1918 and this freed up a large number of troops to be sent west to bolster the German advantage for the Spring Offensive. While the offensive was planned without these troops in mind, they certainly helped. What the Germans were betting on outside of their slight numerical advantage was new tactics, primarily stormtrooper units. The problem was, as before with the Schlieffen Plan the Germans were horrible at planning their logistics and did not have any available mobile troops such as cavalry to exploit a breakthrough.
And isn't it fascinating that in facilitating Lenin's rise to power as a way of taking Russia out of the war, the Germans were sowing the seeds of the Spartacists' rise to power in 1920, and ultimately, the ultimate reaction -- Hitler and the Nazis?

Quote:
Ultimately, this offensive is what led to their failure (though the Germans pretty much agreed the offensive was a last ditch effort). Bolstered by fresh supplies of US troops, the allies were able to go on the offensive. However, what allowed the allies to perform their flanking maneuvers was that the German gains in the Spring Offensive had only created salients, which greatly extended the line and meant that the positions could be attacked from multiple sides and that is exactly what the allies did.
Indeed. In retrospect, it almost seems like retribution for the misery of the British at Paeschendale / Ypres....

Ypres Salient - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Battle_of_Ypres

Last edited by Yeledaf; 05-16-2012 at 06:41 PM..
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Old 05-17-2012, 05:17 AM
 
697 posts, read 657,190 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
Thanks. I'm aware of the difference between England and Great Britain / UK.

(And of the likelihood of the approaching disintegration of the latter...)
Good, well use the proper tern and respect the sacrifice of all those who died then.

By the way, like lot of British people I have strong Irish (Catholic) and Scottish ancestory.

I lost family at Paschendale and have family buried at Tyne Cot.

I also have family in Edinburgh, who will be voting in any future referendum.








Last edited by Mulhall; 05-17-2012 at 05:50 AM..
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Old 05-17-2012, 05:25 AM
 
697 posts, read 657,190 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29 View Post
Northern Ireland didn't exist at the time and British troops were recruited from all over Ireland, indeed the Regular Army had more regiments recruited in Catholic parts of Ireland than in Protestant parts with the Royal Irish Fusliers being a "mixed" regiment raised in both Catholic and Protestant counties. (My grandfather, a Catholic, was an Old Contempible in the 1st Battalion of the RIF, and went into Belgium with the BEF in 1914)

Several Irish regiments of the British Army were disbanded in 1922 when their recruiting grounds became part of the Irish Free State.

An interesting note; during WW II more men from the neutral Free State served in the British forces than did men from Northern Ireland.
Ireland was governed from London, however in 1912 the Liberal Party under Asquith tried to give Ireland devolved home rule, and wanted to unite the North and South under control from Dublin rather than London

As a consequence half a million protestants signed the Ulster Covenant, whilst hundreds of thousands of others joined the Ulster Volunteer Force and took up arms, threatening to fight to the death. The British Army refused to go north and to fight these individuals as many of them came from Protestant Union Families. In the end the outbreak of WW1 and the bravery of the Ulstermen, put an end to any talk of an Ireland united under home rule.

Ulster Covenant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Andrew Marr tells the story here - go to 46 minutes and 50 seconds in the video.



The 36th (Ulster) Division

36th (Ulster) Division - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The 36th (Ulster) Division of the British Army in 1914-1918



......

Last edited by Mulhall; 05-17-2012 at 05:34 AM..
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Old 05-17-2012, 06:30 AM
Status: "I've been good, Santa" (set 13 days ago)
 
Location: On a hill near a river
14,401 posts, read 12,279,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulhall View Post
Good, well use the proper tern and respect the sacrifice of all those who died then.

By the way, like lot of British people I have strong Irish (Catholic) and Scottish ancestory.

I lost family at Paschendale and have family buried at Tyne Cot.

I also have family in Edinburgh, who will be voting in any future referendum.
Out of respect for the American doughboys and GIs who saved you Europeans from self-destruction twice -- including my uncles who died on Omaha Beach in Normandy -- in wars that we never asked for, I'll excuse your rudeness to and childish scolding of a stranger.

This comes from a man who experenced infantry combat himself and who might express some curiosity regarding your military service, were he not reasonably certain that you have never served...
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Old 05-17-2012, 06:43 AM
 
697 posts, read 657,190 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
Out of respect for the American doughboys and GIs who saved you Europeans from self-destruction twice -- including my uncles who died on Omaha Beach in Normandy -- in wars that we never asked for, I'll excuse your rudeness to and childish scolding of a stranger.

This comes from a man who experenced infantry combat himself and who might express some curiosity regarding your military service, were he not reasonably certain that you have never served...
Americans single handedly saved Europe during two world wars did they.

I seem to recall a lot of people from a lot of nations making a lot of sacrifice and not just Americans.

I have just as much respect for the 25 million Russians who laid down their lives and other nationalities.

Any American who starts off by saying something along the lines of 'we saved your asses twice' is a bit ignorant in my opinion.

Secondly I wouldn't jump to conclusions with regard to someone on a forum, especially given that you know nothing of me.
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Old 05-17-2012, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ area
6,898 posts, read 4,072,618 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulhall View Post
Americans single handedly saved Europe during two world wars did they.

I seem to recall a lot of people from a lot of nations making a lot of sacrifice and not just Americans.

I have just as much respect for the 25 million Russians who laid down their lives and other nationalities.

Any American who starts off by saying something along the lines of 'we saved your asses twice' is a bit ignorant in my opinion.

Secondly I wouldn't jump to conclusions with regard to someone on a forum, especially given that you know nothing of me.
If it wasn't for U.S. participation in both World Wars, WW1 and WW2 would have probably had very different outcomes.
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:12 AM
 
1,020 posts, read 850,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diogenes2 View Post
"Just One Long Degradation'
-- Major Sidney Baker, A Letter from the Front

Not counted among the causalties of WWI are those who suffered long, painful illnesses because of the effects of mustard gas, among other things. We will never know how many millions died from similar causes. If there were a misnomer for a war, the 'Great War for Civilization' would be it.

In his book, British Butchers and Bunglers of World War I, John Laffin, whose mother and father both served in WWI, is particularly scathing of the British military leadership, especially naming Field Marshall Earl Haig and Field Marshall Lord French, although several others are called out as well. The callousness,insensitivity and incompetence of the British commanders is cited by Laffin in a paragraph written by Brigadier-General Rees after his brigade's advance on July 1, 1916:

"They advanced in line after line, dressed as if on parade, and not a man shirked going through the extremely heavy barrage, or facing the machine-gun and rifle fire that finally wiped them out. I saw that lines which advanced in such admirable order melting away under the fire. Yet not a man wavered, broke the ranks, or attempted to come back. I have never seen, I would have never imagined, such a magnificent display of gallantry, discipline and determination. The reports I have had from the very few survivors of this marvelous advance bear out what I saw with my own eyes, viz, that hardly a man of ours got to the German front line."

The preceding paragraph describes a carnage with less dispassion than that of a sporting event. Even the German gunners must have been appalled by such indifference to death.

According to Laffin, even after the Battle of the Somme, "Haig appeared undismayed by the number of casualties and with the help of the London press -- he had friends among the newspaper proprietors -- he set about convincing Britain that all was going according to plan." As Laffin said, many battles in history were called off after fewer than 60,000 casualties, but "Haig never entertained the the idea of calling off the offensive."

Predictably, the senior generals were well rewarded for their service. The already wealthy General Haig was given the thanks by parliment and a grant of 100,000 pounds. Other officers received 30,000 pounds. "Next-of-kin of servicemen who gave their lives received a bronze memorial plaque but no other details."
Laffin's book has been debunked by many ,more relaiable authors, for quite some time. I have read it, along with many others on WWI, along with pro and anti Haig books .
Haig, and other senior British Army commanders had their faults, to be sure, but what were their real options on the Western Front?
Political considerations came first, especially after 1914, having to mount the Somme Offensive to take some pressure of the French at Verdun, and the Passschandele Offensive in 1917, following the French mutinies after the failure of the Nivelle offensive on the Chemin des Dames.
Then, in early 1918, it was decided to reduce infantry brigades from 4 to 3 battalions, thus shrinking the size of infantry decisions. The overstretched line, especially in the area of Gough's 5th Army, led to the large German advances in March, 1918.
Yet, once the Germans had 'shot their bolt" in 1918, a reinvigorated British Army, with French and American help, defeated the German Army in open combat, leading to the armistice in November.
I don't believe that Haig recieves enough credit for the achievement.
As was said earlier, the German Army held the high ground on the Western Front, and the only way the Allies would emerge victorious was to assault those well prepared positions. Certainly, there were numerous occasions where poor staff work, miscommunication, or just bad decisons stiffled opportunities for a breakthrough prior to 1918, but that's typical in any war; just look at some of those missed which likely prolonged WWII.
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:48 AM
 
697 posts, read 657,190 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
If it wasn't for U.S. participation in both World Wars, WW1 and WW2 would have probably had very different outcomes.
If Hitler hadn't gone in to Russia WW2 might have had a very different outcome, if the British hadn't held out and defeated the Luftwaffe then WW2 could have had a very different outcome. There are numerous factors that could have seen a different outcome in terms of WW2.

As for WW1, the US role was not the defining factor. It should be noted that Britain was a global superpower at the time with an Empire covering over 1/3rd of the World and with over a billion people (which would have been over two billion today).

Lots of countries played important roles in WW2 and I get sick of American belittling the efforts and sacrifice of other nations with this 'we saved your asses' kind of attitude.
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