Why do they get away with it? (facts, Japanese, crimes)

[Yeledaf]

Originally Posted by Glucorious

The only thing I said was that the Japanese got/get away with all their war crimes as opposed to the Germans. I did not discuss any detail, or war crimes, or made any comment about it..

But I did. Since you raised the comparison. Capic?

And now you posted a link... well,if you had read the OP, you would have read that they paid money to a fund and not directly to the victims to avoid, I suppose indirectly, admitting liability. And there's still a good chunk of people, even in the government, who deny all that.

I posted a complete link, containing all kinds of information, rather than selecting or cherry-picking only information that I found supportive of my position. Yet you choose to refer only to one portion, while ignoring the exhaustive list of apologies issued by the Japanese over the past seven decades.

I think this is unacceptable and should not be tolerated. This isn't Somalia or some of those countries.. but maybe Japan should be held to the same standards as Somalia and co.

As if Japanese warlords were dragging the bodies of American contractors through the streets of Niigata, I suppose (speaking of "deflections"...)

May I ask what form you think such intolerance on our part should take? Severing diplomatic ties? Pulling the Marines out of Okinawa? Restricting the sale of sushi in Los Angeles?

[NJGOAT]

Originally Posted by Yeledaf

While I admit that acting as a de facto proponent of Japanese contrition has been a novel (and instructive) experience for me, I still feel that some readers here are unaware of the compicated nature of this issue and the numerous statements made by Japan over the past seven decades regarding her acts during the war. The wikipedia link below does a fair job of covering the controversies, as well as supplying an exhuastive listing of statements of apology issued by Japanese leaders.

It's complicated because apologizing without acknowledging what happened is complicated. In the decades immediately following the war, the Japanese position was "we apologize for the things that happened in the past". This gradually shifted into "we apologize for the suffering that we caused while waging war upon you" then grew into "we apologize for the suffering caused by our war of aggression". Then there were apologies made to certain groups for what happened; like Australian POW's and for what comfort women endured (though they never acknowledged officially that women were forced into the role, just that they were abused). Throughout there has never been an attempt to directly acknowledge the war crimes aspect in anything but a veiled way and most of the apologies were immediately followed on by an outcry by members of the LDP and legislation to rewrite the past.

I also maintain that projecting European attitudes, with their formative framework of Christian rectitude and humanistic morality, and their corresponding need for overt rhetorical substance onto an Asian island nation with a long history of bellicose feudalism, Confucian rank-sensitivity, and a fatally late and brutally clumsy entry into the world of power politics -- a world which the Western powers created, perfected, and then selectively recanted -- is something which needs to be approached with circumspection.

Even outside of that, the formal act of making an apology is deeply and symbollically rooted in Asian culture. The Japanese have two words for "sorry" in their language, as stated in the wiki article; Owabi and Shazai. Owabi is basically a more apologetic version of "excuse me", while Shazai would be an actual apopolgy. Which one do you think the Japanese use in their statements? Hint, it's not Shazai.

Then we have the act of "dogeza". This is the ultimate level of apology and is done to express remorse or shame. Why has the Emperor or Prime Minister never performed this act? Would it not show the deepest level of regret and shame for the actions of the past? Would it not, in Japan's own cultural tradition, serve as the acknowledgement people are looking for? So, why hasn't it been done? Perhaps the reason is that Japan, collectively, does not feel a deep sense of remorse or shame for the actions of the past. Perhaps it's because their apologies are limited to times when they are politically compelled to do so in the interests of foreign relations.

As the United States learned in Vietnam, the willful ignorance and dehumanization of one's opponent can lead to acts of truly horrific brutality and cruelty. The same can be said of Japan in World War II, of course -- though the former occurred nearly three decades before the latter. To me, the real crime of the Nazis was their willingness to proceed from the framework of European and Christian humanistic thought and build a machine for exterminating peoples (Jews, Slavs, Romas, homosexuals) of whom they knew much yet still refused to treat as fellow humans.

I understand the differences, but I still do not believe that it anyway excuses what happened. Japan, as you have quite well pointed out is a different nation today then it was then. Is it not reasonable that a modern enlightened Japan would find shame and remorse in the acts of the past? Is it not reasonable then that they would want to learn about this past and acknowledge it as evidence of how far they have come? Perhaps they don't because the country may not be as different as it seems.

No reasonable person can or should excuse the Japanese for their actions in World War II. But to argue that within their cultural frame of reference, and within the social/geopolitical location which history and circumstance has placed them, the many acts and statements of contrition which they have made are somehow insufficient, is to dwell in a world that has passed and to harbor a hatred which no one alive deserves.

They are insufficient because they ring hollow.

During my time in Japan, I have visited Yaskuni Shrine and felt the cold stares of elderly Japense men. I have also been helped to my feet and to a hospital by two schoolgirls -- who risked their lives to do so -- in the midst of a typhoon which literally blew me off my bicycle and left me helpless with an injured leg. I refuse to judge Japan by either experience, but dwelling on the first helps me not at all on the steep path to understanding and compassion toward others.

I do not judge the modern people of Japan based on the actions of their ancestors. However, that does not give them a pass to bury and coverup that past. The way things are going there now, most modern generations will have been raised with a radically different view of the war and Japan's place in it then what the historical record would show. Are those who do not learn from the past doomed to repeat it?

[Yeledaf]

Originally Posted by NJGOAT

I do not judge the modern people of Japan based on the actions of their ancestors. However, that does not give them a pass to bury and coverup that past. The way things are going there now, most modern generations will have been raised with a radically different view of the war and Japan's place in it then what the historical record would show. Are those who do not learn from the past doomed to repeat it?

I'm sorry, but your concluding question is freighted with (unintentional) irony.

Japan has observed its constitutional pacifism -- which America mandated -- since the end of the war, with Japan utterly prostrated by weapons so terrible that their use has never been repeated. This in spite of the fact that a growing number of American voices are being raised arguing that Japan needs to re-arm itself in the face of growing Chinese power!

In the seventy-odd years since its defeat, Japan has threatened no one, while our country has engaged in military adventures around the globe -- some successful, most not -- which have brought death and suffering to many thousands of noncombatants. It could be argued that Japan has learned, and acted, on the lessons of history much more effectively than has America.

As I have stated above, I feel a little uncomfortable acting as an apologist for Japan, since I find many aspects of life, culture, and behavior here distasteful. I would describe myself as first and foremost a patriotic American. That said, it is worth mentioning that there is much about Japan which America would do well to reflect on -- and its reliance on peaceful deeds rather than on fulsome verbalization might be a good place to start.

Thanks for your critiques of my posts. You always bring clarity to these discussions.

[NJGOAT]

Originally Posted by Yeledaf

I'm sorry, but your concluding question is freighted with (unintentional) irony.

Japan has observed its constitutional pacifism -- which America mandated -- since the end of the war, with Japan utterly prostrated by weapons so terrible that their use has never been repeated. This in spite of the fact that a growing number of American voices are being raised arguing that Japan needs to re-arm itself in the face of growing Chinese power!

In the seventy-odd years since its defeat, Japan has threatened no one, while our country has engaged in military adventures around the globe -- some successful, most not -- which have brought death and suffering to many thousands of noncombatants. It could be argued that Japan has learned, and acted, on the lessons of history much more effectively than has America.

As I have stated above, I feel a little uncomfortable acting as an apologist for Japan, since I find many aspects of life, culture, and behavior here distasteful. I would describe myself as first and foremost a patriotic American. That said, it is worth mentioning that there is much about Japan which America would do well to reflect on -- and its reliance on peaceful deeds rather than on fulsome verbalization might be a good place to start.

Thanks for your critiques of my posts. You always bring clarity to these discussions.

I've appreciated the discussion as well and you raised many excellent points. I also appreciate the irony in my final statement/question. I harbor no ill-will towards the modern Japanese, I am just a little disgusted at the attempts to "reframe" their recent history and I think the Japanese should be concerned over the same if they value their new found pacifism. Without the context of the actions of the Japanese that led to the atomic bombings and the strict restrictions on Japan, it makes it seem as if the actions of the US and the Allies were excessively punitive beyond reason.

It becomes hard for future generations to accept what Japan itself suffered if they are not also aware of the great suffering that Japan caused. When they are taught that the sum of Japanese actions were nothing more then "misunderstandings" and "actions to free Asia from colonial oppression" it greatly distorts the record of what happened in the war.

Germany made that mistake once. They not only allowed the "stabbed in the back theory" regarding their defeat in WW1 to be discussed, but sections of the government tacitly endorsed it as true. Combined with the harsh punishment imposed at Versailles it allowed regular people to feel as if their nation had been wronged. A sentiment that grew so strong they put Hitler in power and looked the other way as the "backstabbers" were hauled away to camps. Germany made a very conscious effort post WW2 to tell the truth about its past, precisely because it made that mistake before. Sadly there are some parallels between Weimar Germany and modern Japan, albeit drawn out over a much longer time span.

[Yeledaf]

Originally Posted by NJGOAT

Germany made that mistake once. They not only allowed the "stabbed in the back theory" regarding their defeat in WW1 to be discussed, but sections of the government tacitly endorsed it as true. Combined with the harsh punishment imposed at Versailles it allowed regular people to feel as if their nation had been wronged. A sentiment that grew so strong they put Hitler in power and looked the other way as the "backstabbers" were hauled away to camps. Germany made a very conscious effort post WW2 to tell the truth about its past, precisely because it made that mistake before. Sadly there are some parallels between Weimar Germany and modern Japan, albeit drawn out over a much longer time span.

Wow. Comparing modern-day Japan to Weimar Germany is quite a stretch! None of the elements which made Weimar ripe for plucking by the extremist groups (of which the Nazis were only one, as you know) -- rampant inflation and an economy in ruins, a quasi-independent military officer class of Junkers/Prussians, widespread nationalistic sentiment and a feeling of having been wronged by others -- and the "stabbed in the back" excuse which you pointed out, and the potential to re-arm and re-mobilize its people for war -- exists in Japan, with its relatively healthy economy, non-existent military class, a 'benevolent' nationalism based on economic concerns and the women"s world cup soccer champions, rather than military aggression, and a widespread knowledge of who won World war II and why, along with a constitution which officially eschews military force and which the Japanese have scrupulously observed.

You are probably aware that Japan did have one post-war charismatic figure, Yukio Mishima, who might in some ways be compared to Hitler, but he is remembered for his literary and artistic prowess, not his (laughable) attempts to revive the bushido class in Japan:

Yukio Mishima - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As someone who has lived and worked in Japan off and on for the past 25 years, I can testify that aside from a few middle-aged and older whiskey drinkers in hostess bars long after midnight, very few Japanese concern themselves with World War II or its aftermath. The Japanese I know are too busy working late and getting up early, battling the subway, the trains, and the buses, shopping, and playing pachinko and video games, to concern themselves with memories of the things their grandparents suffered through seventy years ago.

I agree with you and the other posters in this thread to the extent that perhaps the government of Japan should be more candid and forthcoming in describing Japan's willingness to engage in a brutal war several generations ago, and to commit the kind of acts that nations at war commit. I reiterate, however, that that history is remote from the Japan that exists today, and comparisons of the Japanese militarists with the Nazis is a far stretch.

But, you know, the people here care so little about what politicians say, knowing from long experience that they are all liars and crooks and the servants of special interests and the powerful classes both at home and abroad, that they ignore them most of the time and get on with the daily struggles of their own lives. In that way, at least, they are more advanced than we Americans. We continue to be surprised and saddened by the egregious incompetence and malignity of our titular leaders. The Japanese have known this all along -- most certainly since 1945, when the nightmare of their last militaristic government came to an end.

[X14Freak]

Japan got away with its war crimes because the people in Japan who were willing to apologize sincerely and teach about the wrongs about WWII are people that America and its Western allies would never ever want as the head of government. Obviously, I am referring to Communists and Leftists. They were purged in the 50s and the CIA backed the LDP during this time. I should also point out that China and North Korea became Communist and this gave the West and Japan even less incentives to actually apologize since this would mean compensations for China which would be a no no since China defaulted on its foreign debt and was Communist.

The SCAP deserves a lot of the blame for letting this happen. They had a lot of chances but MacArthur blew it or helped cover up some some of the atrocities. The Germans only atoned due to significant pressure from the Soviet Union and the Western Allies.

[NJGOAT]

Originally Posted by Yeledaf

Wow. Comparing modern-day Japan to Weimar Germany is quite a stretch! None of the elements which made Weimar ripe for plucking by the extremist groups (of which the Nazis were only one, as you know) -- rampant inflation and an economy in ruins, a quasi-independent military officer class of Junkers/Prussians, widespread nationalistic sentiment and a feeling of having been wronged by others -- and the "stabbed in the back" excuse which you pointed out, and the potential to re-arm and re-mobilize its people for war -- exists in Japan, with its relatively healthy economy, non-existent military class, a 'benevolent' nationalism based on economic concerns and the women"s world cup soccer champions, rather than military aggression, and a widespread knowledge of who won World war II and why, along with a constitution which officially eschews military force and which the Japanese have scrupulously observed.

You are probably aware that Japan did have one post-war charismatic figure, Yukio Mishima, who might in some ways be compared to Hitler, but he is remembered for his literary and artistic prowess, not his (laughable) attempts to revive the bushido class in Japan:

Yukio Mishima - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As someone who has lived and worked in Japan off and on for the past 25 years, I can testify that aside from a few middle-aged and older whiskey drinkers in hostess bars long after midnight, very few Japanese concern themselves with World War II or its aftermath. The Japanese I know are too busy working late and getting up early, battling the subway, the trains, and the buses, shopping, and playing pachinko and video games, to concern themselves with memories of the things their grandparents suffered through seventy years ago.

I agree with you and the other posters in this thread to the extent that perhaps the government of Japan should be more candid and forthcoming in describing Japan's willingness to engage in a brutal war several generations ago, and to commit the kind of acts that nations at war commit. I reiterate, however, that that history is remote from the Japan that exists today, and comparisons of the Japanese militarists with the Nazis is a far stretch.

But, you know, the people here care so little about what politicians say, knowing from long experience that they are all liars and crooks and the servants of special interests and the powerful classes both at home and abroad, that they ignore them most of the time and get on with the daily struggles of their own lives. In that way, at least, they are more advanced than we Americans. We continue to be surprised and saddened by the egregious incompetence and malignity of our titular leaders. The Japanese have known this all along -- most certainly since 1945, when the nightmare of their last militaristic government came to an end.

While I completely agree that Weimar Germany and modern Japan are different places, there are some parallels that can be drawn. My ultimate point has been the same all along, the Japanese government and institutions have been and are currently engaged in a "white washing" of Japan's role in WW2. The point of mentioning Weimar was that when the real story of what happened is not remembered it makes it possible for people to develop the idea that their nation wasn't exactly wrong and may have received unfair treatment at the hands of vengeful opponents. Once that sentiment is fostered it only takes a crisis, real or perceived, to push a people down a path they had sworn off.

[Glucorious]

Originally Posted by Yeledaf

But I did. Since you raised the comparison. Capic?



I posted a complete link, containing all kinds of information, rather than selecting or cherry-picking only information that I found supportive of my position. Yet you choose to refer only to one portion, while ignoring the exhaustive list of apologies issued by the Japanese over the past seven decades.



As if Japanese warlords were dragging the bodies of American contractors through the streets of Niigata, I suppose (speaking of "deflections"...)

May I ask what form you think such intolerance on our part should take? Severing diplomatic ties? Pulling the Marines out of Okinawa? Restricting the sale of sushi in Los Angeles?

Now you can quote my post again and try to respond to what I said, or not.

[X14Freak]

Originally Posted by Glucorious

Now you can quote my post again and try to respond to what I said, or not.

The American government seems to believe that Japanese war crimes aren't very important at all. MacArthur certainly didn't think so and he appointed many former war criminals into high positions and granted clemency to members of Unit 731. America also doesn't seem to think the Armenian Genocide should be recognized. The thing is America will never press their allies on these situations and it is unlikely to change at all because frankly it doesn't in any way serve American interests.

I hate to bring the Holocaust up in this thread but one repercussion from all the reparations given to the Jews is that it served as an example for other groups to also start demanding reparations for atrocities committed against them. For example, many Armenians want land back that they believe is theirs and this is one of the biggest reasons why the Turks do not recognize the Armenian Genocide. If Japan admitted to all their atrocities they would have to pay even more reparations to all the victims. The reparations are the main reason why many countries (not just Japan) formally refuse to recognize their crimes.

[mwruckman]

Originally Posted by Yeledaf

I'm sorry, but your concluding question is freighted with (unintentional) irony.

Japan has observed its constitutional pacifism -- which America mandated -- since the end of the war, with Japan utterly prostrated by weapons so terrible that their use has never been repeated. This in spite of the fact that a growing number of American voices are being raised arguing that Japan needs to re-arm itself in the face of growing Chinese power!

In the seventy-odd years since its defeat, Japan has threatened no one, while our country has engaged in military adventures around the globe -- some successful, most not -- which have brought death and suffering to many thousands of noncombatants. It could be argued that Japan has learned, and acted, on the lessons of history much more effectively than has America.

As I have stated above, I feel a little uncomfortable acting as an apologist for Japan, since I find many aspects of life, culture, and behavior here distasteful. I would describe myself as first and foremost a patriotic American. That said, it is worth mentioning that there is much about Japan which America would do well to reflect on -- and its reliance on peaceful deeds rather than on fulsome verbalization might be a good place to start.

Thanks for your critiques of my posts. You always bring clarity to these discussions.

Japan's constitutional pacificism is now almost a fiction since Japan has one of the most powerful military forces in Asia and one of the most modern. They don't call this force an imperial army, navy or air force but a Self-defense Force and Japan has a Martime Self-defense Force, an Air Self-defense Force and a Land Self-defense Force. The USA encourage Japan to do this to share some of the defense burden in NE Asia and give something for the USSR, North Korea and People's China to think about if they were considering aggression against Japan. Japan's military is as well armed as Israel and has a version of the F-15 that they actually build themselves called the F-15J. The same is true with the M1A1 tanks they have and the Aegis class surface vessiles they have which are equipped for ballistic missle defense. They are also going to be one of the early allies to get F-35s and actually build parts for us since we share F-35 production with most of our key allies. Japan is also developing a 5th generation stealth fighter and its own UCAVs. As for nukes, they enrich their own Uranium all the way up to weapons grade and have about 70 tons of Plutonium on hand. Japan for all its nuclear phobia is considered to be a screwdriver and wrench capable nuclear power i.e. A nuclear power that just needs to assemble the the parts which can be done on the lead up to a national security crisis. Knowing the Japanese they probably have the necessary parts in a climate controlled clean room stashed away somewhere in a place even we don't know.