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Before I'll forget, I need to comment on a couple of things here, that are important for future references...
You've read the material diagonally, apparently... The traditions of "mir" continued in Russia up until the revolution of the 1917 ( i.e. for the last 500 years including,) which makes Russians original communists.
Where were these traditions cultivated? What are the examples? All I see is one absolutist Byzantine ruler after another...
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure
These two economies are directly interdependent, since one created the other.
What part of it you do not understand?
The one missing here, the one about ALL world economies being interdependent and not just China and the US.
Japan needs the US as much as the US needs Europe. Its a global village, baby Pravda didn't wright about it?
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Originally Posted by erasure
The reason why Russia became absolutist monarchy didn't have much to do with Bysantine tradition initially. In fact when Russia received her autocephalous church from Byzantium, back in those days she was very much divided into principalities, governed by different princes, not unlike Germany. However this separation ( and constant quarreling between Russian princes) made the country an easy prey for Tatar-Mongols, when Russian princes couldn't unite their resistance.
The only way Russians could finally remove the Tatar's yoke, was when prince of Moscow concentrated all power in his hands. That's what ultimately strengthened the nation, and laid the ground for absolutism. Before the Tatar invasion Russian democratic traditions were actually more advanced for those times comparably to Western Europe. ( Read about Russian "Veche" - you'll get the idea.)
Tatar-Mongol invasion is yet another reminder that Russia never had it easy comparably with the rest of Europe, and as someone mentioned here - "to be Russian is to be tough."
Your explanation does not explain however why Western countries like Britain, France, Germany slowly gravitated towards Democratic freedoms while Russia, long after Tatar/Mongol threat was gone remained an absolutist regime. From Ivan Grozny to Tsar Vladimir you have always been an absolutist Byzantine regime. What a history
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure
Right. They've probably stolen the space programs too...
Of course atom bomb technology was stolen by Russians. That's a historical fact
Americans had Einstein and atom bomb long before Soviet Union, remember?
Why don't you read the article you quoted again, focus on bolder parts:
The Soviet project to develop an atomic bomb (Russian: Создание советской атомной бомбы) was a clandestine research and development program begun during and post-World War II, in the wake of the Soviet Union's discovery of the United States' nuclear project. This scientific research was directed by Soviet nuclear physicist Igor Kurchatov, while the military logistics and intelligence efforts were undertaken and managed by NKVD director Lavrentiy Beria. The Soviet Union benefited from highly successful espionage efforts on the part of the Soviet military intelligence (GRU). During the midst of World War II, the program was started by Joseph Stalin who received a letter from physicist Georgy Flyorov urging him to start the research, as Flyorov had long suspected that many of the Allied powers were already secretly advancing after the discovery of nuclear fission in 1939. However, because of the bloody and intensified war with Germany on the Eastern Front, the large scale efforts prevented Soviets from developing the atomic bomb, but accelerated the program after the American atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, thus putting an end to World War II. The Soviet atomic project was charged with gathering intelligence efforts on German nuclear program as well as the American nuclear efforts. After the atomic raids on Japan and the subsequent Japanese surrender in 1945, the Soviet Union expanded its research facilities, military reactors, and employed a number of scientists, including its atomic spies who successfully penetrated the American nuclear weapons efforts.
Through its successful Russian Alsos and the atomic spy ring, the Soviet Union's espionage ultimately led them to conduct the first test of its implosion-type nuclear device, codename First Lightning on 29 August 1949, at Semipalatinsk, Kazakh SSR. With the success of this test, the Soviet Union became the second nation after the United States to have successfully developed and conducted nuclear tests.
Still can't see how Russia stole the bomb from the Americans? If not - read this passage again while focusing on boldest parts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure
"Russians are not a part of European family."
They are part of European family indeed, that follows its own path and doesn't let the "other part" of European family to go uncontrolled in the world, which indeed is/was a problem for the US interests in particular. They've had enough of those pesky Russians, and when they saw their chance in the 90ies, the US gov. acted up on it.
Not just the US but the entire free world was relieveved knowing that the Russian threat has been postponed. Sorry, you can't be a part of Europe while you occupy central Europe and aim your rockets at European cities.
Face it, you were never part od Europe, for most Europeans you were just the wild beast waiting to attack and plunder.
Still can't see how Russia stole the bomb from the Americans? If not - read this passage again while focusing on boldest parts.
I suggest you do a research without focusing on what proves your point. SU didn't stole a bomb - just a bit of research info. This somewhat shortened the time to create a bomb - but that's it.
Where were these traditions cultivated? What are the examples? All I see is one absolutist Byzantine ruler after another...
Your explanation does not explain however why Western countries like Britain, France, Germany slowly gravitated towards Democratic freedoms while Russia, long after Tatar/Mongol threat was gone remained an absolutist regime. From Ivan Grozny to Tsar Vladimir you have always been an absolutist Byzantine regime. What a history
Their history taught Russians, that with the size of their territory, the diverse population and the fact that their territory and riches were wanted by the East and by the West alike, they were better off with strong centralized government. Without such fist ( as practice showed them) they could of have fall apart long time ago. And then, they wouldn't have been able to fulfill their predestination of containing the West and containing Islamic expansion - the predestination that they've had as a Third Rome.
Quote:
The one missing here, the one about ALL world economies being interdependent and not just China and the US.
Japan needs the US as much as the US needs Europe. Its a global village, baby Pravda didn't wright about it?
So far you are the only one who is wrighting one cliche after another. Pravda wouldn't be able to keep up with your Faux News propaganda))))
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Of course atom bomb technology was stolen by Russians. That's a historical fact
In your head, without looking into facts.
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Americans had Einstein and atom bomb long before Soviet Union, remember?
You mean America had yet another European Jew who invented it, and you are ready to disregard the fact that he is a Jew, because as long as the Jew is not Commie and works for the benefit of DAS CAPITAL he is tolerated by you?
Quote:
Why don't you read the article you quoted again, focus on bolder parts:
I can offer you the same - to focus on a bolder part, just one;
Quote:
In the 1990s, with the declassification of Soviet intelligence materials, which showed the extent and the type of the information obtained by the Soviets from US sources, a heated debate ensued in Russia and abroad as to the relative importance of espionage, as opposed to the Soviet scientists' own efforts, in the making of the Soviet bomb. The vast majority of scholars agree that whereas the Soviet atomic project was first and foremost a product of local expertise and scientific talent, it is clear that espionage efforts contributed to the project in various ways and most certainly shortened the time needed to develop the atomic bomb.
So it was only a matter of time.
If back in thirties Russians already had their space program, they would have figured out how to produce the nuclear weapons as well. Hence this proves my point that they are from European family and therefore couldn't be controlled as Asians, who are as "advanced" in technology as the West allows them. That's why they needed to be done with and over, once and for all.
Quote:
Not just the US but the entire free world was relieveved knowing that the Russian threat has been postponed. Sorry, you can't be a part of Europe while you occupy central Europe and aim your rockets at European cities.
Face it, you were never part od Europe, for most Europeans you were just the wild beast waiting to attack and plunder.
My-my, aren't we getting too emotional?
That's again your own fantasies and projections. To begin with - for long time Europe was not one big happy family as you are trying to present here. It was full of internal conflicts, and Russia, being a weighty participant in European politics, was playing its balancing role in European affairs, siding with different powers. In fact, when asked what was the key to successful foreign policy for Germany, Bismarck - the man who stood behind the unification of his country responded "Make a good treaty with Russia."
When Russian troops were present in Europe, which didn't happen too often, they've never left a memory of a "wild beast" as you are trying to present here, and in case you forgot, it was Russia that was plundered by Europeans during Napoleonic wars, not the other way around.
Another thing to remember, is it were not Russians who first used the mustard gas on its enemy, but enlightened Europeans.
As I see here, things drastically changed when the foreign power entered European theater - namely the United States, with its purchasing abilities, and its own interests in European politics.
Once the communists were removed from European governments on American demand, in exchange for money, this is where I see the different era was setting in Europe, with guns aimed in both directions.
This is god's way I suppose to keep things in check, as in "trust but verify," when it's coming to the nations that are most successful and prosperous in modern times. The power of money that rules the world can't be trusted and needs to be contained, that's why I've mentioned earlier that I don't consider West necessarily "evil," but on another hand I don't believe in definition of the "evil Empire" given to Russia either. There is no such thing as "ultimate good" and "ultimate evil," when it's coming to confrontation between Russia and the West. The only difference between them is that in Russia the evil stares you right in the face and you have no problem to distinguish good from bad there, while in the US it's lurking in the corners.
However going back to the stand-up between Russia and the West in post war times - soon enough those were the most prosperous and peaceful years for both, in spite of the international conflicts here and there, and these times are not going to return any longer.
Their history taught Russians, that with the size of their territory, the diverse population and the fact that their territory and riches were wanted by the East and by the West alike, they were better off with strong centralized government. Without such fist ( as practice showed them) they could of have fall apart long time ago. And then, they wouldn't have been able to fulfill their predestination of containing the West and containing Islamic expansion - the predestination that they've had as a Third Rome.
Keep on believing that and you will have one Putin after another. Its not a coincidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure
So far you are the only one who is wrighting one cliche after another. Pravda wouldn't be able to keep up with your Faux News propaganda))))
Its definetely Faux News propaganda that all world economies are interdependent in XXI century. Sure, Erasure. Sure. Lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure
You mean America had yet another European Jew who invented it, and you are ready to disregard the fact that he is a Jew, because as long as the Jew is not Commie and works for the benefit of DAS CAPITAL he is tolerated by you?
Yes it had. Nevertheless the US had the bomb some 8 years before Russians and the article you quoted clearly states that Russian effort to build nuclear weapons was aided by spies such as Klaus Fuchs or the Rosenbergs. There is an article in wiki on just that:
So it was only a matter of time.
If back in thirties Russians already had their space program, they would have figured out how to produce the nuclear weapons as well. Hence this proves my point that they are from European family and therefore couldn't be controlled as Asians, who are as "advanced" in technology as the West allows them. That's why they needed to be done with and over, once and for all.
The logical construction of your point is so absurd it hurts. How does your space program prove anything especially since:
Although the Katyusha was very effective on the Eastern Front during World War II, the advanced state of the German rocket program amazed Russian engineers who inspected its remains at Peenemünde and Mittelwerk after the end of the war in Europe. Although the Americans had secretly moved most leading German scientists and 100 V-2 rockets to the United States in Operation Paperclip the Russian program greatly benefited from captured German records and scientists, in particular drawings obtained from the V-2 production sites. [8]:20,25,27,29-31,56 Under the direction of Dimitri Ustinov, Korolyov and others inspected the drawings. Helped by rocket scientist Helmut Gröttrup and other captured Germans until the early 1950s.
At least we are honest about our space program and its pioneers such as Wernher Von Braun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure
That's again your own fantasies and projections. To begin with - for long time Europe was not one big happy family as you are trying to present here. It was full of internal conflicts, and Russia, being a weighty participant in European politics, was playing its balancing role in European affairs, siding with different powers. In fact, when asked what was the key to successful foreign policy for Germany, Bismarck - the man who stood behind the unification of his country responded "Make a good treaty with Russia."
When Russian troops were present in Europe, which didn't happen too often, they've never left a memory of a "wild beast"
Red Army? Worse than animals. Read some first hand accounts from Poland in 1920 or Poland and Czech Republik in 1944 and 1945. .Soviet soldiers raping women and stealing everything they could. Red Army was worse than animals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure
as you are trying to present here, and in case you forgot, it was Russia that was plundered by Europeans during Napoleonic wars, not the other way around.
Another thing to remember, is it were not Russians who first used the mustard gas on its enemy, but enlightened Europeans.
As I see here, things drastically changed when the foreign power entered European theater - namely the United States, with its purchasing abilities, and its own interests in European politics.
Once the communists were removed from European governments on American demand,
You really believe that this was an American demand and not the will of people of Central Europe??? Hungary in '56, Czechs in '68, Poles in 1980.
Do you mean that Hungarians, Poles, Czechs really liked their commie governments? Wow. Now you overdid yourself, erasure. That's pure commie propaganda. Let me break it to you: they always considered you occupiers and couldn't wait till you get the hell out of their countries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure
in exchange for money, this is where I see the different era was setting in Europe, with guns aimed in both directions.
This is god's way I suppose to keep things in check, as in "trust but verify," when it's coming to the nations that are most successful and prosperous in modern times. The power of money that rules the world can't be trusted and needs to be contained, that's why I've mentioned earlier that I don't consider West necessarily "evil," but on another hand I don't believe in definition of the "evil Empire" given to Russia either.
Of course you don't. You have your Rusian Byzantine way of looking at the world. But the rest of the world saw the Soviet evil empire that killed and oppressed millions of people in many different countries and continental.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure
There is no such thing as "ultimate good" and "ultimate evil," when it's coming to confrontation between Russia and the West. The only difference between them is that in Russia the evil stares you right in the face and you have no problem to distinguish good from bad there, while in the US it's lurking in the corners.
However going back to the stand-up between Russia and the West in post war times - soon enough those were the most prosperous and peaceful years for both, in spite of the international conflicts here and there, and these times are not going to return any longer.
Except for the opressed people in soviet block countries who had to wait for their freedom almost 50 years...
You left Soviet Union 20 years ago Erasure yet you still look at the world through Soviet glasses. Unbelievable.!
Do you think Communist italy would be different than Russia? Communist Germany wasn't.
But Fascist Italy was different form the Fascist Germany.
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Do you think tsar murdered even a quarter of people Communists did?
If tsar was ruling the Empire like the commies did house of Romanov would be at the helm until now.What are you even comparing?
Wait, but aren't you the same person, who points over and over again at absence of "democratic traditions" in Russia?
Tzar was the contributing problem and if he would have continued to rule without changes, Russia would have completely turned into European colony. I understand that you'd favor such outcome, as for those "millions murdered" by Stalin - sorry, it's just a myth, that Americans love to support.
Tzar was a way to nowhere, while Stalin as brutal as he was, was still offering a solution.
Quote:
Where were these traditions cultivated? What are the examples? All I see is one absolutist Byzantine ruler after another...
Why would the communist traditions be cultivated in the world of progressing capitalism, that was all the rage?
Quote:
The one missing here, the one about ALL world economies being interdependent and not just China and the US.
But SOME economies are more interdependent than other. The US foot has been caught in China, so I am not missing anything..
Quote:
Japan needs the US as much as the US needs Europe.
And that's the reason why approaching economic collapse is a domino effect.
Quote:
Your explanation does not explain however why Western countries like Britain, France, Germany slowly gravitated towards Democratic freedoms while Russia, long after Tatar/Mongol threat was gone remained an absolutist regime. From Ivan Grozny to Tsar Vladimir you have always been an absolutist Byzantine regime. What a history
It's all biblical, Rebel, particularly when it's coming to Britain.
The "democratic reforms" were coming from above not below, as I've already mentioned starting from the Age of Enlightenment, while in Russia the upper class remained loyal to absolutism and suppression of the masses. That's why no upper class in Europe received the punishment; the kind the Russian upper class received. Germany with its oppressive state was not far behind.
Quote:
Keep on believing that and you will have one Putin after another. Its not a coincidence.
Did I ever said that Putin was a coincidence?
When the US gov. made a decision of being instrumental in plundering of Russia during the nineties, I've predicted to ppl on the Capitol Hill that this robbery was not going to end up well, and instead of docile puppet government that they'd hope to see in Russia as the result of it, the return of KGB to power was in cards instead. Some people agreed with me, but they were in minority.
I think they remember that conversation well by now.
Quote:
Yes it had. Nevertheless the US had the bomb some 8 years before Russians
Why, Rebel? Why did the US needed to build the bomb 8 years before Russians, while being situated on a totally different continent?
And why would a European guy ( Klaus Fuchs that is) decided to side with Russians?
Quote:
Although the Katyusha was very effective on the Eastern Front during World War II, the advanced state of the German rocket program amazed Russian engineers who inspected its remains at Peenemünde and Mittelwerk after the end of the war in Europe. Although the Americans had secretly moved most leading German scientists and 100 V-2 rockets to the United States in Operation Paperclip the Russian program greatly benefited from captured German records and scientists, in particular drawings obtained from the V-2 production sites. [8]:20,25,27,29-31,56 Under the direction of Dimitri Ustinov, Korolyov and others inspected the drawings. Helped by rocket scientist Helmut Gröttrup and other captured Germans until the early 1950s.
At least we are honest about our space program and its pioneers such as Wernher Von Braun.
So are Russians. Starting from Tziolkovsky
Quote:
Red Army? Worse than animals. Read some first hand accounts from Poland in 1920 or Poland and Czech Republik in 1944 and 1945. .Soviet soldiers raping women and stealing everything they could. Red Army was worse than animals.
Worse than animals may be, but not worse than Germans, right?)))
Quote:
You really believe that this was an American demand and not the will of people of Central Europe??? Hungary in '56, Czechs in '68, Poles in 1980.
Err... let's not jump to "Central Europe" right away, so what happened to Communists in French and Italian governments?
Quote:
Of course you don't. You have your Rusian Byzantine way of looking at the world.
And you have your American Reiganian way of looking at the world, so what's a big deal?
Quote:
Except for the opressed people in soviet block countries who had to wait for their freedom almost 50 years...
Uggh... sorry - as I've said they were the collateral damage in the post-war times.
May be, just may be, if the US would have offered money to Europe from the open heart, not in exchange for political favors, the situation might have been different.
See, money are such thing, that sometimes they can be of no importance, and sometimes - downright diabolic)))
Quote:
You left Soviet Union 20 years ago Erasure yet you still look at the world through Soviet glasses. Unbelievable.!
No-no, my life overseas made me change outlook on things, so it's quite believable...
as for those "millions murdered" by Stalin - sorry, it's just a myth, that Americans love to support.
Stalin indeed killed millions, if you believe it's a myth it means you are precongressual, somebody from the past before the 20th Congress of the Communist Party in 1956. If you belive that Stalin had any specific goal apart from remaing in power, you need to go over the real history of your country. As Tzars, if Russia would have taken the course of Kerensky and socialdemocrats, it would be now a large and important economic and democratic power.
"Facts are stubborns" as Comrade Lenin said, and the fact that Stalin killed millions in revived by their relatives. Your USSR ceased to exist when your beloved Koba was drowned with a pillow by Kruschev and L. Beria was shot in Lubyanska before he could carry his coup d'etat. You can read all this info in the same Pravda, during the short spring of freedom of the press back in 1956.
As to the collapse, lack of efficiency and the chip revolution. When the technological gap between US-Japan was 10 to 15 years, their oil was wasted in a constant bleeding to support COMECON and republics went amok with corruption, factories were just obsolete and real economy (free market economy) impacted the USSR with all its force, to the point that what was once an industrial power for forced to live off commodities that also suffered tremendoulsy because of collectivization, the country floundered.
as for those "millions murdered" by Stalin - sorry, it's just a myth, that Americans love to support.
Stalin indeed killed millions, if you believe it's a myth it means you are precongressual, somebody from the past before the 20th Congress of the Communist Party in 1956. If you belive that Stalin had any specific goal apart from remaing in power, you need to go over the real history of your country. As Tzars, if Russia would have taken the course of Kerensky and socialdemocrats, it would be now a large and important economic and democratic power.
"Facts are stubborns" as Comrade Lenin said, and the fact that Stalin killed millions in revived by their relatives. Your USSR ceased to exist when your beloved Koba was drowned with a pillow by Kruschev and L. Beria was shot in Lubyanska before he could carry his coup d'etat. You can read all this info in the same Pravda, during the short spring of freedom of the press back in 1956.
As to the collapse, lack of efficiency and the chip revolution. When the technological gap between US-Japan was 10 to 15 years, their oil was wasted in a constant bleeding to support COMECON and republics went amok with corruption, factories were just obsolete and real economy (free market economy) impacted the USSR with all its force, to the point that what was once an industrial power for forced to live off commodities that also suffered tremendoulsy because of collectivization, the country floundered.
Oh, I believe that Stalin with his "chistka"s and collectivization killed quite a few people, but the numbers are exaggerated by the West - that I am sure about, even looking at recently opened archives..
as for those "millions murdered" by Stalin - sorry, it's just a myth, that Americans love to support.
Stalin indeed killed millions, if you believe it's a myth it means you are precongressual, somebody from the past before the 20th Congress of the Communist Party in 1956. If you belive that Stalin had any specific goal apart from remaing in power, you need to go over the real history of your country. As Tzars, if Russia would have taken the course of Kerensky and socialdemocrats, it would be now a large and important economic and democratic power.
"Facts are stubborns" as Comrade Lenin said, and the fact that Stalin killed millions in revived by their relatives. Your USSR ceased to exist when your beloved Koba was drowned with a pillow by Kruschev and L. Beria was shot in Lubyanska before he could carry his coup d'etat. You can read all this info in the same Pravda, during the short spring of freedom of the press back in 1956.
As to the collapse, lack of efficiency and the chip revolution. When the technological gap between US-Japan was 10 to 15 years, their oil was wasted in a constant bleeding to support COMECON and republics went amok with corruption, factories were just obsolete and real economy (free market economy) impacted the USSR with all its force, to the point that what was once an industrial power for forced to live off commodities that also suffered tremendoulsy because of collectivization, the country floundered.
Oh, I believe that Stalin with his "chistka"s and collectivization killed quite a few people, but the numbers are exaggerated by the West - that I am sure about, even looking at recently opened archives..
Of course, this evil West hates Russia because it has always been so successful ROTFL
Sometimes I wish commies still ruled Russia with iron fist and the internet was something Russian citizens could only read about. There would be substantially less BS in the internet.
But Fascist Italy was different form the Fascist Germany.
Wait, but aren't you the same person, who points over and over again at absence of "democratic traditions" in Russia?
Tzar was the contributing problem and if he would have continued to rule without changes, Russia would have completely turned into European colony. I understand that you'd favor such outcome, as for those "millions murdered" by Stalin - sorry, it's just a myth, that Americans love to support.
Tzar was a way to nowhere, while Stalin as brutal as he was, was still offering a solution.
Why would the communist traditions be cultivated in the world of progressing capitalism, that was all the rage?
But SOME economies are more interdependent than other. The US foot has been caught in China, so I am not missing anything..
And that's the reason why approaching economic collapse is a domino effect.
It's all biblical, Rebel, particularly when it's coming to Britain.
The "democratic reforms" were coming from above not below, as I've already mentioned starting from the Age of Enlightenment, while in Russia the upper class remained loyal to absolutism and suppression of the masses. That's why no upper class in Europe received the punishment; the kind the Russian upper class received. Germany with its oppressive state was not far behind.
Did I ever said that Putin was a coincidence?
When the US gov. made a decision of being instrumental in plundering of Russia during the nineties, I've predicted to ppl on the Capitol Hill that this robbery was not going to end up well, and instead of docile puppet government that they'd hope to see in Russia as the result of it, the return of KGB to power was in cards instead. Some people agreed with me, but they were in minority.
I think they remember that conversation well by now.
Why, Rebel? Why did the US needed to build the bomb 8 years before Russians, while being situated on a totally different continent?
And why would a European guy ( Klaus Fuchs that is) decided to side with Russians?
So are Russians. Starting from Tziolkovsky
Worse than animals may be, but not worse than Germans, right?)))
Err... let's not jump to "Central Europe" right away, so what happened to Communists in French and Italian governments?
And you have your American Reiganian way of looking at the world, so what's a big deal?
Uggh... sorry - as I've said they were the collateral damage in the post-war times.
May be, just may be, if the US would have offered money to Europe from the open heart, not in exchange for political favors, the situation might have been different.
See, money are such thing, that sometimes they can be of no importance, and sometimes - downright diabolic)))
No-no, my life overseas made me change outlook on things, so it's quite believable...
US didn't plunder Russia after communism: there was nothing to plunder. What could the US take from Russia? Advanced computer technologies? Those famous Russian
car designs? What exactly could be plundered?
Stalin was never a solution. Solution would be making Russia a modern country with personal freedoms, democracy and free market economy.
But this could never happen - Russians are too stupid for that. Instead they prefer iron rule in the best Byzantine tradition.
Reading your responses I think Russia got exactly what it deserves.
Last edited by rebel12; 09-05-2012 at 11:29 PM..
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The traditions of "mir" continued in Russia up until the revolution of the 1917 ( i.e. for the last 500 years including,) which makes Russians original communists.
