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Old 08-27-2012, 09:57 PM
 
23,600 posts, read 70,412,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVA1990 View Post
Because there's no physical evidence to suggest there were that many people living in the New World prior to the arrival of Europeans. 50 million folks, even if spread across both continents would have left a lot more behind than has been found.

One would think that it wouldn't be too difficult to estimate the number of inhabitants at any one time throughout pre-history by doing a statistical analysis of dna samples and comparing their relationships against other populations distributed across similar distances. .
As I gather more years, it becomes more apparent to me just how ephemeral signs of our existence are. Even major projects just disappear. There was a fort and encampment across from Fort Ticonderoga during the revolution that went back into the underbrush, leaving little more than some trenches. The route - including many embankments - of a Vermont trolley line that ceased operation in 1932 is gone unless you know exactly where to look. A house that I used to visit regularly in the 1970s is gone without a trace, even without outside help.

When you bring it to cultures where there is minimal metal use, traces get even smaller. In Florida, there are huge piles of clamshells from Indians there, but if bones are used to fertilize, even those can be missing.
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Old 08-31-2012, 02:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
One needs to look no further than even Europe to see what population levels they had a hard time maintaining with constant issues of starvation.
At the very least, climates and other conditions were way too different - America was much richer in this respect.
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Old 08-31-2012, 02:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVA1990 View Post
Because there's no physical evidence to suggest there were that many people living in the New World prior to the arrival of Europeans. 50 million folks, even if spread across both continents would have left a lot more behind than has been found.
There was once an ancient Korean civilization, probably numbered in millions, living in Northern China, Korea, and my home province:

Balhae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Primorye (Russian province) is located on a small hilly peninsula (VERY unlike Americas), but new evidence of this civilazation is still being discovered - and who knows, how much is still buried.

And it's not like Russians are not interested in archeology. There are even some Bohai (Russian, of course, since Bohai is very long gone) myths, that attract lots of domestic tourists to "sacred grounds".
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Old 08-31-2012, 10:31 PM
 
Location: Elsewhere
88,584 posts, read 84,795,337 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVA1990 View Post
Because there's no physical evidence to suggest there were that many people living in the New World prior to the arrival of Europeans. 50 million folks, even if spread across both continents would have left a lot more behind than has been found.

One would think that it wouldn't be too difficult to estimate the number of inhabitants at any one time throughout pre-history by doing a statistical analysis of dna samples and comparing their relationships against other populations distributed across similar distances. .
Then I take it you've read 1491 and disagree with the author. Not saying I agree or disagree one way or another with him myself, but he's putting forth the current thinking of academia in that area, and I at least think the information he provides should be taken into consideration not being an expert in that area myself.
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Old 08-31-2012, 10:34 PM
 
Location: Elsewhere
88,584 posts, read 84,795,337 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harry chickpea View Post
As I gather more years, it becomes more apparent to me just how ephemeral signs of our existence are. Even major projects just disappear. There was a fort and encampment across from Fort Ticonderoga during the revolution that went back into the underbrush, leaving little more than some trenches. The route - including many embankments - of a Vermont trolley line that ceased operation in 1932 is gone unless you know exactly where to look. A house that I used to visit regularly in the 1970s is gone without a trace, even without outside help.

When you bring it to cultures where there is minimal metal use, traces get even smaller. In Florida, there are huge piles of clamshells from Indians there, but if bones are used to fertilize, even those can be missing.
What I found most interesting in 1491 is the information that, as areas in the Amazon basin are cleared of what was always thought to be virgin forest, they are uncovering evidence of people having lived there before.
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Old 08-31-2012, 11:33 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,211 posts, read 107,904,670 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
A few million is a reasonable number for north america.

One needs to look no further than even Europe to see what population levels they had a hard time maintaining with constant issues of starvation.
European agricultural practices were dysfunctional, and tended to sap the soil of nutrients. Ag practices in the Americas tended to renew the soil. We know archaeologically that in the Mayan region, for example, there were many cities that supported populations of 40,000, that was not an exceptional number. Most likely the same is true of the Aztec regions.

Studies have shown that it wasn't even necessary for colonizers to reach a population to spread disease. Imported animals that got loose and roamed West brought disease with them before Europeans reached some Native populations.

On the other hand, North America never got overpopulated, unlike Europe, because Native women had herbal "family planning" that was effective. Europe used to have similar herbs, but they were already consumed almost to extinction by the time of the Roman Empire.
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Old 09-02-2012, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Østenfor sol og vestenfor måne
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Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
European agricultural practices were dysfunctional, and tended to sap the soil of nutrients. Ag practices in the Americas tended to renew the soil.

While Europeans used the plow, which in thin, unproductive soils does create erosion, the use of draught animals to pull said plows allowed a consisant organic replenishment of the field's nutrients. It should be noted that even today after millennia of heavy agricultural use, Europe still remains very productive even with traditional, organic methods.

Meanwhile, the dominant form of agriculture in the Americas was small scale horticulture that relied on slash and burn practices that required long fallow periods so long as to necessitate abandonment of fields after only a handful of seasons. This was quite maintainable due to the light and sparse nature of the population.

The exception was the great agricultural societies of the Aztecs and Maya who had population surpluses great enough to provide copious amounts of night-soil to replenish more permanent fields. Unfortunately, this was a very labor intensive ag practice compared to the European style, necessitating that the bulk of the population being engaged in field labor. Meanwhile, the Spanish aristocracy was able to raise armies of middle-class townsmen clad in armor made by specialist producers giving them the edge they needed to remove the aristocracy of the Valley of Mexico.

The dominance of the Europeans came down to management of their populations as much as inventions like ships, guns, and armor.
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