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Yes I see that it all would be very interesting to see how well modern medicine could handle whatever came up. The 60 member seals teams would have to have the best doctors in the US Navy imbedded into theirs unit.......and I still say that they would have to use chemical - germ warfare WMD along side of nuclear war heads to defeat the roman army and civilian deaths would be common place.
How does a SEAL unit deploy nuclear weapons on a battlefield that they share with their enemy? Plus the question wasn't whether or not the might of the entire U.S. military could defeat the Roman Army.
Yes I see that it all would be very interesting to see how well modern medicine could handle whatever came up. The 60 member seals teams would have to have the best doctors in the US Navy imbedded into theirs unit.......and I still say that they would have to use chemical - germ warfare WMD along side of nuclear war heads to defeat the roman army and civilian deaths would be common place.
I agree that defeating the Romans would be a very tall order and also unlikely, especially as the Romans would keep trying no matter how long it took. The seals would either be captured and offered a deal or they'd be picked off.
But...
Germ and pathogan wise, your talking several centuries ago. Most of what was normal and no problem to the locals would not be normal and likely a problem to the seals. Things mutate over time and this is why migration and invasion is usually followed by disease. The doctors might be good but they'd have what they could carry, and unless they borrowed some of the really small techie med stuff from star trek they wouldn't have the back up to deal with it. You need a lab and if you make a vaccine you need the right strain of the offending disease. Given we're talking time travel, I would assume they wouldn't have one.
If they used germ warfare it would be pretty much a forgone conclusion they were going to bite the bucket anyway since it like gas is something which cannot be contained. On the other hand they could be germ warfare all by themselves.
now we have to figure out why they'd be going after the Romans... ummm, the universe in the future is collapsing and they are preparing the way to send big bunches back into the past to live out their lives all fresh? I'd think if people were coming with the neato super whizbang tech the seals had, the Romans would ask them where they wanted to live and be very happy to see them. Just like others who had something to advance the dominance of Rome they could learn.
Okay. As long as we're smoking the Harry Turtledove brand of crack, here's how it works. The problem is that you guys think everything is about fighting, when a fair amount of savvy and imagination is called for:
1) 60 SEALs lie in ambush for a Roman legion that is on the march with the Emperor, most likely to the German frontier on the Rhine.
2) Ambush said legion with Claymores, heavy machine gun fire and mortars.
3) After taking roughly 1,000 casualties within the first 20 seconds and witnessing huge balls of flame erupt spontaneously among their ranks, the legion flees in terror, believing that the Gods have decided to wage war on them. Based on their worldview, that is the only possible rational explanation they could have for the 21st Century pyrotechnics they have witnessed. The emperor's guard drops his litter and runs away as well.
4) SEALs stroll up to abandoned Emperor and spare his life, holding him hostage. Emperor gulps upon looking at their godlike weaponry, inconceivable from the standpoint of 2nd Century Rome, and accedes to their demands. Emperor commands the remnants of his legion to obey him, telling them that he has found accommodation with the gods. A propitiatory cow is sacrificed and the scattered Roman legion begins to reassemble around the emperor and his new guard.
5) Any scoffers or dissidents are taken out by sniper fire, their sudden deaths once again credited to the magical powers of the war gods.
6) Emperor, accompanied by this new, strange Praetorian Guard, marches up to the Rhine and commands his other legions to fall into line. Amazed by the power of the new war gods, they pledge their unswerving loyalty to the emperor. Step #5 repeated.
7) Emperor returns to Rome with the SEALs, who quickly round up the Emperor's family and hold them hostage to ensure his absolute compliance. Legend of new magical powers precedes him, which ensures even greater fidelity among the citizenry and the Senate.
8) SEALs begin to replicate modern technology as much as possible in secret workshops, arming a select number of loyal troops with flintlocks and cannons. One workshops builds the barrels, another the firing mechanism, another the gunpowder. Legions are armed and trained with new weapons and dispatched to deal with the German tribes once and for all. Commanders and soldiers alike are promised immense wealth if they push the Roman frontiers into present-day Poland. Within a generation, the Roman frontier is pushed all the way to the Volga, helped by miraculous new advancements in communication, advancements that allow the emperor to communicate instantaneously with his generals hundreds of miles away.
9) Meanwhile, enlightened social policies begin to transform Rome. Printing presses begin to operate, each putting out more documents in a day than an army of scribes could replicate in a month. Resulting documents spread amazing new scientific treatises on medicine, physics, astronomy, agriculture, geography, and much more -- Stuff that is second nature to the average 5th grader today. The labor-saving machinery that had been banned by Trajan as a threat to employment are brought to the forefront again, including machinery that harnesses steam. Agricultural production soars.
9) Once power is firmly grasped, current Roman emperor is garroted in his sleep. New Roman Emperor is named: Jimmy the First. He presides over a golden age of the Roman Empire, aided in large part by the huge advantage that the Empire has achieved in a very short time in science and technology. The German tribes are either wiped out or cowed into submission, the Persians are annihilated, and Roman colonies begin to ring Africa, Arabia, Brittania, and an entire continent 3,000 miles to the west.
I wasn't sure if this thread was more appropriate for the History, Military Life and Issues or Great Debates forum. I chose History because I figured that some of you may be knowledgeable about military history.
Do you think it would be possible for 50-60 SEALS to take out the entire Roman army given the right equipment?
Do they get a time travel supply line too?
Remember "Blackhawk down"? Now play that out with 50,000 of Caesar's finest roaring into 60 imbedded SEALS with no air support or artillery. It's pretty obvious how that's gonna end.
Remember "Blackhawk down"? Now play that out with 50,000 of Caesar's finest roaring into 60 imbedded SEALS with no air support or artillery. It's pretty obvious how that's gonna end.
Well, given the completely ridiculous nature of the question, why not?
The technological difference between a squad of American soldiers and Somalis is infinitesimal compared to the difference in technology between American SEALs and the ancient Romans. While the Americans fought in crowded Mogadishu at a time and place chosen by Somali warlords, the SEALs would likely pick the time and place they chose to engage a Roman legion.
What's more, who in God's name would be stupid enough to deploy out into the open and challenge a Roman legion on the field of battle? The entire advantage that a bunch of SEALs would have would be stealth, ability to engage from a distance, and surprise. Standing out in an open field inviting Roman archers to shoot at them would be idiocy to the extreme.
Further, a Roman legion standing out in a field would have zero knowledge of either firearms or mortars, which means that they would have absolutely no understanding of where the attack was coming from--or even if it were an attack at all. All they would see would be huge balls of flame, some really strange staccato noices, and hundreds of their fellow soldiers falling dead all around them. They wouldn't see an enemy to fight, they wouldn't see clouds of arrows, they wouldn't see anything at all. They wouldn't even know the most rudimental of tactics of a firefight such as diving for cover. Standard bearers and centurions would likely be picked off, adding to the absolute chaos. The remainder would just stand up there and be slaughtered. The smart ones would run away.
Heck, even with the close proximity of technology between the United States forces and the Somalis, as well as a basic understanding of modern irregular warfare tactics, the Somalis took an estimated 1,100 killed and wounded. Imagine the effect on Romans standing in close formation, not knowing what the hell was going on.
I'd be interested if you could cite one historical incident of the Roman army running due to superstition.
The Roman army was highly superstitious. They were constantly looking for auspices. They even carried sacred chickens with them and would attempt to feed them cake before a battle. Depending on how the chickens reacted to the cake, they would choose to go to battle. And there were certain days where the Roman army refused to engage because the rank and file believed that those were the days that the gates of the Underworld were opened. So, yeah, I don't think it's much of a reach that some high explosives would make them think that the Gods were pretty ticked off at them.
Heck, there's an idea right there. Have a couple of snipers waiting in hiding for them to trot out the sacred chickens. Then drop the birds with a well-placed rifle shot or two. Then look to hear, "Aiiiieeeee! Run away! Jupiter killed our chickens with a bolt from above!" Those are words you likely wouldn't hear in any modern army.
The Zulus had some guns. And the technological gap was not as wide.
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Originally Posted by ovcatto
The Little Big Horn
Same thing.
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Originally Posted by ovcatto
Mogadishu, ( that was 160 Seals, Rangers, Special Forces and Air Force Para-rescue)
Same thing.
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Originally Posted by ovcatto
Even with modern weapons it would be a slaughter. I don't care what weapons 60 men would have that could withstand an attack by 3,750,000 soliders with bows, lances, or ancient forms of long range weapons. It's silly speculation.
What is the range of a bow and arrow compared to a high powered rifle? And if the Seals used some type of incendiary device (i.e., napalm), wouldn't that pretty much end the battle right there? With a few cannons, they could just shell a bunch of incendiaries into the Roman ranks and burn them all to pieces.
Well, given the completely ridiculous nature of the question, why not?
The technological difference between a squad of American soldiers and Somalis is infinitesimal compared to the difference in technology between American SEALs and the ancient Romans. While the Americans fought in crowded Mogadishu at a time and place chosen by Somali warlords, the SEALs would likely pick the time and place they chose to engage a Roman legion.
What's more, who in God's name would be stupid enough to deploy out into the open and challenge a Roman legion on the field of battle? The entire advantage that a bunch of SEALs would have would be stealth, ability to engage from a distance, and surprise. Standing out in an open field inviting Roman archers to shoot at them would be idiocy to the extreme.
Further, a Roman legion standing out in a field would have zero knowledge of either firearms or mortars, which means that they would have absolutely no understanding of where the attack was coming from--or even if it were an attack at all. All they would see would be huge balls of flame, some really strange staccato noices, and hundreds of their fellow soldiers falling dead all around them. They wouldn't see an enemy to fight, they wouldn't see clouds of arrows, they wouldn't see anything at all. They wouldn't even know the most rudimental of tactics of a firefight such as diving for cover. Standard bearers and centurions would likely be picked off, adding to the absolute chaos. The remainder would just stand up there and be slaughtered. The smart ones would run away.
Heck, even with the close proximity of technology between the United States forces and the Somalis, as well as a basic understanding of modern irregular warfare tactics, the Somalis took an estimated 1,100 killed and wounded. Imagine the effect on Romans standing in close formation, not knowing what the hell was going on.
That's basically my point. The technological gap would be so wide. I mean, why would you be phased by an archer if you've got a high powered rifle, night vision, etc?
I was watching a special on the Navy Seals and they said that a group of 10 can pump out something like 4,000 rounds a minute. Obviously, they couldn't sustain that pace over the course of a whole day, but would they need to? With cannons, mortars and 60 Seals giving the Romans everything they had, would the Romans be able to last 30 minutes? It would just be bodies dropping in mass numbers.
The Zulus had some guns. And the technological gap was not as wide.
Same thing.
Same thing.
What is the range of a bow and arrow compared to a high powered rifle? And if the Seals used some type of incendiary device (i.e., napalm), wouldn't that pretty much end the battle right there? With a few cannons, they could just shell a bunch of incendiaries into the Roman ranks and burn them all to pieces.
Exactly. I cannot fathom why these people don't get this. SEALs are pretty smart. In what universe would a SEAL unit commander say to his men, "Hey. You see those guys marching towards us with swords and bows? We're going to stand out here in the open and engage them at close range." Meanwhile, that's exactly how the Romans fought. Hell, they were even averse to using stirrups for their cavalry. Technology drives tactics.
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