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Old 11-24-2012, 03:57 PM
 
2,460 posts, read 1,241,741 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redfish1 View Post
I just got done watching a special about the dark ages and in the reenactments they show the moors that invaded Spain and Italy as looking Mediterranean or Arab. I've always been under the belief that the moors started out more black than Arab looking from the paintings and other art work I've seen.
Neither the Moors nor any Arabs ever invaded Italy. Italy did not exist until the 19th
century. What is now the Italian peninsula, still, never was invaded on land.
Sicily, however, was.
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:19 PM
 
Location: Medina (Brooklyn), NY
656 posts, read 1,026,619 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redfish1 View Post
I just got done watching a special about the dark ages and in the reenactments they show the moors that invaded Spain and Italy as looking Mediterranean or Arab. I've always been under the belief that the moors started out more black than Arab looking from the paintings and other art work I've seen.
Yes, the Moors were a "Black". They showed you exactly who they were. Why would they depict themselves in such a manner if they didn't look this way? The Aboriginal Arabs were what we now refer to as Black and look no different from today's African American that you ride next to on the bus (quite literally). This has been written about in many books by scholars both Black and European (so called White). The White Arab that you see dominating North African (aka Middle East) today conquered the land from the Original people there (Blacks). It is the White Arab that dominates the region today however it was not always this way. Black Arabs were in Arabia thousands of years before White got there and assimilated into the culture and religion (Islam). Even White Arab scholars know this.

Would you like some references to where you could find out this information for yourself?
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Old 11-25-2012, 06:50 PM
 
Location: St. Augustine
9,258 posts, read 11,441,516 times
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I think the Moors in Spain were Berbers, to a large extent anyway.
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Old 11-26-2012, 12:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit View Post
The Moors were not blacks. Blacks come from sub-Saharan Africa. Moors came from north of the Sahara (northwest Africa).
Really?

From the 16th Century drawing,



From 1283



A tapestry dating from 1350-1400



Please review the images of north Africans

The True Negro (2a): The Berbers (Moors)
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Really?

From the 16th Century drawing,



From 1283



A tapestry dating from 1350-1400



Please review the images of north Africans

The True Negro (2a): The Berbers (Moors)
The true negro? Sounds like propaganda to me. I suppose certain types of 'racism' are OK in this society though. You know these links are not objective at all.
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peer79 View Post
The true negro? Sounds like propaganda to me. I suppose certain types of 'racism' are OK in this society though. You know these links are not objective at all.
They weren't posted to be read. The images, since the topic is phenological, was what I considered relevant. The tapestries and other images were gathered from various museum websites.
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:55 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peer79 View Post
The true negro? Sounds like propaganda to me. I suppose certain types of 'racism' are OK in this society though. You know these links are not objective at all.

Below is one book I have in my library on the subject. I'm curious; what did you find racist about the posted source? The word true negro? Factual historical depictions of Moors?

The Golden Age of the Moor (Journal of African Civilizations, Vol 11, Fall 1991) [Paperback]

The Golden Age of the Moor (Journal of African Civilizations, Vol 11, Fall 1991): Ivan Van Sertima: 9781560005810: Amazon.com: Books
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:11 PM
 
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The term "Moors" is a generalization referring to people from a certain region, not a specific group of people. The early "Moors" were a Berber group, hence from Africa, that had a widely ranging phenotype that went from light skinned with light hair to very dark skin with dark hair. At least this is what modern researchers like Keita state. The groups that composed the "Moors" were conquered and then absorbed into the Muslim dynasty's that inhabited northern Africa at this time.

The name Moor itself is derived from the the Latin "Mauri" which refers to the Africans that inhabited northwest Africa (and is the root of the country name Mauritania). Early post-Roman European writings refer to "Mauri" in a broad sense as anyone from Africa. When this Latin term made it into the romance language families it became "mouro" (or a version thereof) and generally referred to either people from Africa, but more generally people of "dark skin". The Spanish used the term "Moor" rather liberally. For instance the ones that occupied the Iberian peninsula are generally referred to as "Andalusian Moors". The term also came to refer to anyone who was "alien" aka non-Christian, even unbaptized children in Spain and Portugal were referred to as "moors".

If you look at the artwork and things you will often see wide ranging phenotype among the Moors who inhabited the Iberian peninsula. From "Arab" to "sub-Saharan African" to even "Mediteranean" or "Northern European". This is all simply a result of natural African Berber variation and admixture with Arabs and sub-Saharan Africans. In a strict genetic sense, they would be considered "black" aka "True Negro" as they certainly originated from Africa with a little bit of recent Arab admixture. However, in the social sense of physical appearance they would have ranged from "white" to "black" and everything in between. What perhaps makes some of it confusing is that they had what we associate with a distinctive "Arab/Muslim" dress and architectural style. This leads them to often be portrayed as "Arab" looking in modern times even though there actual physical appearance varied widely. They were also Muslim and when most people hear "Muslim" they instantly associate that with people who look Arab.
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Old 11-29-2012, 02:33 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque
6,506 posts, read 6,780,666 times
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So if someone writes some racist BS in the 21st century, that makes 500 year old tapestries fake, racist propaganda?

The Berbers are light skinned, Visigoths left their genetic mark in North Africa as seen by blondes in the population, Saharan and sub-Saharan Africans are Black, they all were present in Moorish society. The term 'Moor' does not denote a biological race or set of physical traits. A Moor could be blue eyed and blond, or jet black-skinned with kinky hair. Many Moors were Black as can be seen from period representations in historical and art sources, but there are plenty of sources which depict White Moors as well.
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:16 PM
 
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Berbers from the Rif are still living in the Atlas mountains. They are the ones that came with Tarik in 711

Blacks in Morrocco come from black slavery in the XVIth and XVIIth Century, far later that the end of the Reconquest. In the case of Libya, Gadaffy brought them and there's no love lost between Lybians and Africans.

Medieval painting is not for real, in most cases do no reflect reality. They might paint people blue, green or purple people. Medieval painting is not realist precisely, but was intended for propaganda and fear.

Blacks were a very extreme rarity in Al Andalus and Christian Spain, it was a sign of luxury and distinction. Only the very powerful had blacks in their retinue. I have a remote ancestor that had a black servant that he used to scare peasants whenever they did not pay him taxes around 1620, sometimes I wonder what happened to him.

The only real written record we have of the presence of subsaharan blacks (not moors, that are white and come from Asia) appear in the battle of Las Navas de Tolosa.

According to legend, in 1212 the Caliph had his tent surrounded with a bodyguard of slave-warriors who were chained together as a defense. The Navarrese force led by their king Sancho VII broke through this bodyguard. The Caliph escaped, but the Moors were routed, leaving some 100,000 casualties on the battlefield. The victorious Christians seized several prizes of war: the tapestry covering the entrance to Al Nasir's tent was sent to the Abbey of Santa María la Real de Las Huelgas near Burgos where it remains on display to date, and Miramamolín's tent and standard were delivered to Pope Innocent III.


Many chronics say that those chained men were his Black Guard, but since none was left alive we will never now. They also used Vikings centuries before.

Muslims respected blacks because Ali, a black slave in Meccah, became the first muezzin.

Last edited by Montpensier; 12-01-2012 at 12:30 PM..
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