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Many Ukrainian people who were Jewish, were also burned alive or shot at places such as Baba Yar.
Babi Yar is one of the darkest pages in Jewish history, although not often mentioned, because there was no concentration camps involved so to speak, HOWEVER..
"The massacre was the largest single mass killing for which the Nazi regime and its collaborators were responsible during its campaign against the Soviet Union[1] and is considered to be "the largest single massacre in the history of the Holocaust".[2]Victims of other massacres at the site included thousands of Soviet POWs, communists, Gypsies (Romani people), Ukrainian nationalists and civilian hostages. It is estimated that between 100,000 and 150,000 more lives were taken at Babi Yar.[3]"
The account of a witness, who was then a 14 year old Ukrainian boy and later wrote a book about it is one of the most powerful documentaries about the life on the occupied territory during the WWII.
It's why the thread is such a heated discussion. Hitler preached the worser ideology, Stalin did the killing. Western history books have long forgotten those murdered but continue focusing on Hitler's message
"Why did Warsaw not negotiate with Berlin, which was hinting at an offer of compensatory territory in Slovakia? Because the Poles had a war guarantee from Britain that, should Germany attack, Britain and her empire would come to Poland’s rescue.
But where is the evidence that Adolf Hitler, whose victims as of March 1939 were a fraction of Gen. Pinochet’s, or Fidel Castro’s, was out to conquer the world?
But if Hitler was out to conquer the world — Britain, Africa, the Middle East, the United States, Canada, South America, India, Asia, Australia — why did he spend three years building that hugely expensive Siegfried Line to protect Germany from France? Why did he start the war with no surface fleet, no troop transports and only 29 oceangoing submarines? How do you conquer the world with a navy that can’t get out of the Baltic Sea?
If Hitler wanted the world, why did he not build strategic bombers, instead of two-engine Dorniers and Heinkels that could not even reach Britain from Germany?
Why did he let the British army go at Dunkirk?
Why did he offer the British peace, twice, after Poland fell, and again after France fell?
Why, when Paris fell, did Hitler not demand the French fleet, as the Allies demanded and got the Kaiser’s fleet? Why did he not demand bases in French-controlled Syria to attack Suez? Why did he beg Benito Mussolini not to attack Greece?
Because Hitler wanted to end the war in 1940, almost two years before the trains began to roll to the camps."
"Why did Warsaw not negotiate with Berlin, which was hinting at an offer of compensatory territory in Slovakia? Because the Poles had a war guarantee from Britain that, should Germany attack, Britain and her empire would come to Poland’s rescue.
But where is the evidence that Adolf Hitler, whose victims as of March 1939 were a fraction of Gen. Pinochet’s, or Fidel Castro’s, was out to conquer the world?
But if Hitler was out to conquer the world — Britain, Africa, the Middle East, the United States, Canada, South America, India, Asia, Australia — why did he spend three years building that hugely expensive Siegfried Line to protect Germany from France? Why did he start the war with no surface fleet, no troop transports and only 29 oceangoing submarines? How do you conquer the world with a navy that can’t get out of the Baltic Sea?
If Hitler wanted the world, why did he not build strategic bombers, instead of two-engine Dorniers and Heinkels that could not even reach Britain from Germany?
Why did he let the British army go at Dunkirk?
Why did he offer the British peace, twice, after Poland fell, and again after France fell?
Why, when Paris fell, did Hitler not demand the French fleet, as the Allies demanded and got the Kaiser’s fleet? Why did he not demand bases in French-controlled Syria to attack Suez? Why did he beg Benito Mussolini not to attack Greece?
Because Hitler wanted to end the war in 1940, almost two years before the trains began to roll to the camps."
You have a mess in head .The Germans killed Only the (military Russian) 8,700 million Russian and 19 million civilians in rough estimate.
Seriously, this has to be one of the most conoluted threads in this forum right now. Instead of quoting, I'm just going to do my best to address some of the things that were said. Feel free to ignore them if you want to continue to babble conspiracy theories at each other.
1. Eisenhower did not starve 1.5 million German POW's. That claim is based on a thoroughly discredited book that was discussed and the claim thoroughly debunked in this thread:
2. That essay linked from Pat Buchanan was posted before. The essay can be summed up by simply saying, Pat Buchanan is an idiot. See this thread, if you want the blow-by-blow critique and deconstruction of Pat's thesis:
3. Boris Borisov did not write a research piece. He wrote a satire piece whose intent was to call into question the methodologies western researchers were employing to calculate the number of victims of the Holodomor. Borisov himself has repeatedly stated that the piece was satire, but that doesn't change the fact that some people continually insist on pulling out his article as some sort of "fact based research". Quoting that piece by Borisov is like quoting the Onion as a news source or Monty Python's "History of the World" as a source on revolutionary France. This thread dealt with the article when it was posted:
4. The Holodomor has been a raging topic of discussion several times. Did people starve to death in the Ukraine at that time? Yes. Was the starvation created/worsened by Soviet policies under Stalin? Yes. Were people intentionally starved? Not so easy to answer. I personally believe that Stalin could have cared less about the people who died, but I am not overwhelmingly convinced that there was a clear intent on his part to starve the people. However, he certainly capitalized on the situation to eliminate national and class enemies among the Ukrainian "kulaks". This thread had a long running debate between a poster "Alma1", erasure and myself. It covered the topic in detail:
5. How many people did Stalin kill? This is not an easy one to answer and the truth of the matter is no one really knows for sure. There are four main events/policies that compose the deaths attributed to Stalin. These do not count anything that happened during WW2:
a. Holodmor: 2.4 - 7.5 million people.
b. Gulags: 1.75 - 2.75 million people.
c. Purges: 700k directly, but many of the gulag deaths were the end result of purges as well.
That gives us anywhere from around 5 - 11 million deaths for those three categories, obviously wide ranging. The remainder of the deaths are from the final topic, collectivization. No one really knows how many people died as a result of the collectivization policies of Stalin. The estimate is that around 10 million died during the process of collectivization. This is based primarily on census data that shows that there were 21 million less people living on farms post-collectivization, but that the urban population had only increased by around 12 million. The missing people are considered "deaths". This is the central part of Borisvo's critique and is valid. The census numbers show that there may be a "missing 10 million", but that does not mean that 10 million actually died or that if they did that the deaths were caused by Stalin and/or his policies.
Overall, most modern research based on Soviet archives settles on a number of around 6-8 million civilians killed by Stalin in the pre-war years. This pales compared to the 11 million killed by the Nazi's during the Holocaust alone. There is also a difference in intent. The Nazi intent was to eliminate people based on racial ideology. The Soviet intent was that these people were "casualties" in the race for modernization and achieving communism and/or protecting Stalin's hold on power. A Jew could have been an ardent Nazi and still be killed for being a Jew. People who were ardent Stalinists, feared nothing. I understand, that is splitting hairs and both were brutal, but there is a difference there in terms of intent.
Finally, once we start introducing WW2 into the factors, everything goes out the window. Who do we blame for the deaths of tens of thousands of Soviet civilians killed in reprisal for actions of Soviet partisans? Is it the Nazi's or the Soviets? Who do we blame for POW gulag deaths in 1941-1943? The Soviets let the prisoners starve, but the food shortage was caused by the German invasion.
Ultimately, both were brutal dictators and I would not like to live in a nation run by either. As to which one was "worse" I would personally have to say Hitler based on the ideology behind why he did what he did.
Seriously, this has to be one of the most conoluted threads in this forum right now. Instead of quoting, I'm just going to do my best to address some of the things that were said. Feel free to ignore them if you want to continue to babble conspiracy theories at each other.
1. Eisenhower did not starve 1.5 million German POW's. That claim is based on a thoroughly discredited book that was discussed and the claim thoroughly debunked in this thread:
2. That essay linked from Pat Buchanan was posted before. The essay can be summed up by simply saying, Pat Buchanan is an idiot. See this thread, if you want the blow-by-blow critique and deconstruction of Pat's thesis:
3. Boris Borisov did not write a research piece. He wrote a satire piece whose intent was to call into question the methodologies western researchers were employing to calculate the number of victims of the Holodomor. Borisov himself has repeatedly stated that the piece was satire, but that doesn't change the fact that some people continually insist on pulling out his article as some sort of "fact based research". Quoting that piece by Borisov is like quoting the Onion as a news source or Monty Python's "History of the World" as a source on revolutionary France. This thread dealt with the article when it was posted:
4. The Holodomor has been a raging topic of discussion several times. Did people starve to death in the Ukraine at that time? Yes. Was the starvation created/worsened by Soviet policies under Stalin? Yes. Were people intentionally starved? Not so easy to answer. I personally believe that Stalin could have cared less about the people who died, but I am not overwhelmingly convinced that there was a clear intent on his part to starve the people. However, he certainly capitalized on the situation to eliminate national and class enemies among the Ukrainian "kulaks". This thread had a long running debate between a poster "Alma1", erasure and myself. It covered the topic in detail:
5. How many people did Stalin kill? This is not an easy one to answer and the truth of the matter is no one really knows for sure. There are four main events/policies that compose the deaths attributed to Stalin. These do not count anything that happened during WW2:
a. Holodmor: 2.4 - 7.5 million people.
b. Gulags: 1.75 - 2.75 million people.
c. Purges: 700k directly, but many of the gulag deaths were the end result of purges as well.
That gives us anywhere from around 5 - 11 million deaths for those three categories, obviously wide ranging. The remainder of the deaths are from the final topic, collectivization. No one really knows how many people died as a result of the collectivization policies of Stalin. The estimate is that around 10 million died during the process of collectivization. This is based primarily on census data that shows that there were 21 million less people living on farms post-collectivization, but that the urban population had only increased by around 12 million. The missing people are considered "deaths". This is the central part of Borisvo's critique and is valid. The census numbers show that there may be a "missing 10 million", but that does not mean that 10 million actually died or that if they did that the deaths were caused by Stalin and/or his policies.
Overall, most modern research based on Soviet archives settles on a number of around 6-8 million civilians killed by Stalin in the pre-war years. This pales compared to the 11 million killed by the Nazi's during the Holocaust alone. There is also a difference in intent. The Nazi intent was to eliminate people based on racial ideology. The Soviet intent was that these people were "casualties" in the race for modernization and achieving communism and/or protecting Stalin's hold on power. A Jew could have been an ardent Nazi and still be killed for being a Jew. People who were ardent Stalinists, feared nothing. I understand, that is splitting hairs and both were brutal, but there is a difference there in terms of intent.
Finally, once we start introducing WW2 into the factors, everything goes out the window. Who do we blame for the deaths of tens of thousands of Soviet civilians killed in reprisal for actions of Soviet partisans? Is it the Nazi's or the Soviets? Who do we blame for POW gulag deaths in 1941-1943? The Soviets let the prisoners starve, but the food shortage was caused by the German invasion.
Ultimately, both were brutal dictators and I would not like to live in a nation run by either. As to which one was "worse" I would personally have to say Hitler based on the ideology behind why he did what he did.
- There are photos/footage of Eisenhower's death camps. Let's remember these are the same individuals that set Dresden on fire. Link to thread on this message board? Haha ok
- If you question the accuracy of deaths at the hands of Stalin then surely you question Hitler and the Holocaust in the same regard, correct? The notion that he "gassed and killed 6 million jews". Ex: Should we credit him for deaths that occurred from illness/old age?
Same argument you made bout Stalin can be made on Hitler's concentration camps: If his intention was extermination then why did he wait over two years before sending Jews to concentration camps (where he already had gentile Poles?) and furthermore house and feed them? Weird treatment for individuals you're trying to exterminate, wouldn't you say?
History books. If I'm not mistake all you've posted is some article written in 1993?
The numbers mentioned in those history books were nothing but pure speculations, because in such country as Russia, behind the closed borders no one could know anything for sure. This article explains it, giving the estimates that well- known historians were making before.
They didn't prove to be true - that's all to it.
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