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PS. As for Japanese, they were "honorary aryans" or something like this, according to Hitler's racial theories. These theories were quite peculiar I'd say...
He felt offended he offered a deal and Poland said Fk you. Four years earlier Hitler was very fond of Polish leader Pilsudski. Hoping they could together attack Russia. This Western made perception that Hitler was always hell bent on eliminating Poland is false. It is a way to ignore that WW2 was started heavily on broken promises by the UK
Evidence shows Hitler wanted an alliance with Poland as he had with Hungary, Slovakia, Italy and Spain
You could make the argument Poland's stubbornness to not give up Danzig and it's Jewish population propelled the rest of the world into War. Then again, Poland had a promise from England & France that ended up broken lies, one of many with the Allies.
Last edited by infinite_limit; 05-02-2013 at 02:45 AM..
He felt offended he offered a deal and Poland said Fk you. Four years earlier Hitler was very fond of Polish leader Pilsudski. Hoping they could together attack Russia. This Western made perception that Hitler was always hell bent on eliminating Poland is false. It is a way to ignore that WW2 was started heavily on broken promises by the UK
The invasion and annihilation of some 5 million Poles was because Hitler was offended? Now that is some mighty fine revisionist history. Yes, Hitler was hoping for Poland to join the anti-Comintern Pact as a subordinate to Nazi Germany along with the relinquishment of Danzig. But an alliance like, Hungary, Slovakia, Italy and Spain, how strange? There was nothing similar to the relationships that Germany had with any of the four. Spain's neutrality did nothing to advance German war aims, both Slovakia was nothing more than another version of Vichy France. Your best analogy might be Hungary but that's a stretch as well.
Now, as for this western "perception" that Hitler was "hell bent" on eliminating Poland, so all of this talk about lebensraum and the Generalplan Ost is just a figment of western perception? Czechs, ethnic Poles and Russians were not ethnically inferior people? Where is the "evidence" disproving this flawed western "perception?"
The invasion and annihilation of some 5 million Poles was because Hitler was offended? Now that is some mighty fine revisionist history. Yes, Hitler was hoping for Poland to join the anti-Comintern Pact as a subordinate to Nazi Germany along with the relinquishment of Danzig. But an alliance like, Hungary, Slovakia, Italy and Spain, how strange? There was nothing similar to the relationships that Germany had with any of the four. Spain's neutrality did nothing to advance German war aims, both Slovakia was nothing more than another version of Vichy France. Your best analogy might be Hungary but that's a stretch as well.
Now, as for this western "perception" that Hitler was "hell bent" on eliminating Poland, so all of this talk about lebensraum and the Generalplan Ost is just a figment of western perception? Czechs, ethnic Poles and Russians were not ethnically inferior people? Where is the "evidence" disproving this flawed western "perception?"
What is the difference between Poland and those other nations?
They accepted
Poland declined
Why would Hitler offer an alliance with Poland (before negotiating with Russia) if his aim was full destruction? Makes no sense. Wouldn't he avoid that and simply attack
You are looking at it through hindsight. I'm telling you why it turned out like it did. Everything you mention occurred AFTER Poland declined the alliance leaving Hitler with no choice. You think Hitler didn't view Japanese as inferior? And yet he worked with them
The invasion and annihilation of some 5 million Poles was because Hitler was offended?
Why yes, he had feelings you know...
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Now, as for this western "perception" that Hitler was "hell bent" on eliminating Poland, so all of this talk about lebensraum and the Generalplan Ost is just a figment of western perception?
Like totally.
A classical case of imagination running wild.
What is the difference between Poland and those other nations?
They accepted Poland declined
Well that's a rather facile argument and I'm being charitable.
What pact did Spain accept? It took Germany's help when it needed it and decline to give much in return. Franco amassed his forces along Spain's northern borders to insure against Germany incursions or attempts to attack Gibraltar. Arguing that Slovakia "agreed" is the risible of arguments considering that Slovakia was a Nazi created puppet state. I won't burden you with anything harder to understand like the complex nature and history of Nazi relationships with Hungry and Italy.
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Why would Hitler offer an alliance with Poland (before negotiating with Russia) if his aim was full destruction? Makes no sense. Wouldn't he avoid that and simply attack
The entire history of Hitler's pre-war machinations were based upon lies, feints, and miss directions. Why fake an attack on a radio station when the issue was the denial of Danzig? Why a Soviet Non-Aggression Pact when he never intended not to invade the Soviet Union? Why the lies and prevarications to Chamberlain?
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You are looking at it through hindsight. I'm telling you why it turned out like it did. Everything you mention occurred AFTER Poland declined the alliance leaving Hitler with no choice.
My Man, what pact are you referring to? Poland had agreed to a non-aggression pact with German in 1934, because Poland KNEW that they would be one of the first targets of Nazi Germany. Piłsudski foolishly believed that Hitler being an Austrian didn't hold the same designs on Poland that previous German regimes had held. So what pact are you referring to, the 1938 demand that Poland cede Danzig and free passage through Polish territory? You honestly think that such a deal would have staved off German ambitions? That's a pretty silly proposition and one that no one especially the Poles were buying AT THE TIME!
What is the difference between Poland and those other nations?
They accepted
Poland declined
Why would Hitler offer an alliance with Poland (before negotiating with Russia) if his aim was full destruction? Makes no sense. Wouldn't he avoid that and simply attack
You are looking at it through hindsight. I'm telling you why it turned out like it did. Everything you mention occurred AFTER Poland declined the alliance leaving Hitler with no choice. You think Hitler didn't view Japanese as inferior? And yet he worked with them
Poland has a very complex history and the view of "right and wrong" is going to very much depend on which side of that history you are on. With that said, we can look at this one moment/period in time and place ourselves in their position.
The Polish participation in the partition of Czechoslovakia was not nearly as aggressive as has been painted so far in the thread. There were routine Polish-Czech border conflicts beginning as soon as WW1 ended. The disputed territories contained a large number of Polish identifying communities and Poland worked to sieze these territories and there several border wars and negotiations that took place. When Nazi Germany was moving to sieze Czechoslovakia, among their demanded territory was a critical rail hub in the area Poland had long desired to claim. Poland made moves to mobilize forces to take this area in the event of a Nazi invasion. When the French, British and Soviets all decided to turn a blind eye to Czechoslovakia, the Czechs themselves actually gave permission for Poland to take the territory. They pulled out their troops and police forces and that was that. The Nazi's were happy because internationally it looked like Poland was just as in on the partition as everyone else.
When it came to Hitler's demands of Poland, it was not as simple as giving up Danzig or signing an alliance. What Hitler wanted and the Poles knew he wanted, was a complete submission of Polish national sovereignty to Nazi Germany. Poland would cease to exist as an independent entity and would essentially become a component of the Reich. The Nazi's would select the government, the Nazi's would make the laws and enforce policies, etc. That was Poland's choice. Surrender the nation and let Germany have its way with Poland or fight and hope to preserve the nation with western Allied assistance.
Hitler could have cared less about Danzig or the Germans and Jews that lived there. Hitler wanted and needed Poland. When it became obvious that Poland wasn't going to simply roll over, the plans for invasion began. Even if Poland had given up Danzig and the corridor it would not have been enough to satiate Hitler and his plans for what to do with the "bastard child of Versailles".
The Poles had a choice. Surrender their sovereignty and nation without a fight, or not.
The Polish participation in the partition of Czechoslovakia was not nearly as aggressive as has been painted so far in the thread.
I resemble that remark!
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When it came to Hitler's demands of Poland, it was not as simple as giving up Danzig or signing an alliance. What Hitler wanted and the Poles knew he wanted, was a complete submission of Polish national sovereignty to Nazi Germany.
At the beginning of World War Two, the Jews of Poland were caught between a rock and a hard place - living in a nation where many people hated them and facing another nation that wanted to wipe them out.
Some people want to hold the Jews at least partially responsible for what happened to them by pointing out that some Jews were attracted to Communism. Consider this - Jews in Poland were living under a Catholic nationalist regime that didn't consider them as "true" Poles and held ancient religious prejudices against them (the Jews are evil because they killed Christ, Jews use the blood of Christian children to make matzo for Passover, etc.) Unfortunately, there was no liberal democratic alternative for Jews to belong to as there would be in the United States, so Communism was the only other choice, a bad one - unfortunately. It is sad but not surprising that with the imposition of a Communist regime in Poland after World War Two that some Polish Jews may have wanted to settle some old scores with Polish Catholics.
The Polish nation was also tarnished before and during World War Two by fighting with Lithuanians, who were traditionally Roman Catholic, and with Orthodox Ukrainians. There were massacres on all sides.
- Who even fought Hitler? Britain, Russia and Poland. The rest of the globe turned the other cheek and went on with their daily lives
- American Jews ignorant anger towards Poland. Poles sacrificed themselves to save their fellow countrymen only to be ridiculed by them to this day
- Look at all the allies the Nazis had.
- Polands gift for fighting from beginning to end across the continent: Soviet rule
- The destruction of fighting the Nazis and lose of life
- Opinion that Poland was weak, when the Nazis steam rolled everyone but vastly larger Russia (1 on 1).
Can someone tell me what was gained?
Poland did not have any options. Hitler wanted to destroy the Polish state, he had the means to do it and he did it. Americans these days seem to be so poorly educated in history that a Adolf Hitler is inconceivable to them let alone what he did. Do you even understand that Hitler had no place in his New World order for for Slavic people who were slated to be enslaved and worked to death or put to death when no longer needed? What was gained. There is still a nation and a people who call Poland home.The culture that gave us, great muscians, soldiers, scientists and Pope John Paul II survived.
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