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Old 05-09-2013, 08:18 AM
 
Location: Oopsland
631 posts, read 1,068,880 times
Reputation: 595

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Recently I've met some man on the forum who as I guess believe that Boston terrorists from Chechnya are sort of an exception. He thinks that terrorism has nothing to do with Chechnya. That really pissed me off since the man doesn't even know the history of recent years. This was the reason I started to think over how biased and corrupt some of the American politicians and mass media are when it comes to news about countries (be it Russia or China or else) America doesn't have a very friendly relationship with. Brainwashing is a common thing in this case.

I personally know some Russian people who had to leave Chechnya in the 90s. I used to work with them. They had to leave the region since the Chechens made the ethnic cleansing (when I say Chechens I mean only those who used to be terrorists or criminals since it is clear that there used to be a lot of peaceful Chechens who did not commit any murders or other crimes). Chechens robbed the houses of Russians, they raped Russian women, they atrociously killed Russian women and men. They even killed kids, for god sake. Why? Just because they were Russians. They did it with the utter severity like chopping the heads, arms or legs off. The Russian people were afraid to walk the streets. They lived in the constant fear. They were extremely suppressed. Chechens killed not only Russians but other nations in the region too like Ukrainians, Tartars, or Jews. Why? The answer is simple enough. They did not belong to the Chechen people. You won't believe it but back in the 90s there used be even slavery. Chechens kidnapped Russians and sold them as slaves to other Chechens.

Many of the Russian mass media covered these events, they wrote about it, they published some horrifying stories, they published photos of mutilated bodies, threatening signs on walls like, "Russians, we will slaughter you all" or "Don't buy apartments from Russians since we are going to take them away for free".

Just considerer this. Russians used to be around the 30 percent of all population in that region at the end of the 80s. Now there is about 1 percent of Russians in that region. Many of them were killed by Chechens and many of them had to move to other regions where it was safe.

When I tried to google any information about the genocide of Russians by Chechens on American web sites I found nothing. Nothing! I really could not believe it. I can provide a lot of articles in Russian and yet I can't find even one in English. This is just mind-boggling. Yeah, we all know there is a brainwashing and censorship in China and Russia. However, there is a brainwashing and censorship in the States, too.
I know that Russia and America never were too much friendly and yet when American politicians conceal and deny the genocide that used to be... It is. I don't even have a word for it. It is inhuman to say at least. American mass media often represented it other way round trying to show that bad Russians killed innocent Chechen rebels.

I also know that later the war broke out mainly because of that genocide. During the war some innocent Russians and Chechens were killed by Russian and Chechen military forces. However, it is another long story. It happened later as a result of that genocide mostly. It is no brainer to find that information in the American mass media under the titles like 'War in Chechnya. Bad Russian soldiers kill peaceful Chechen rebels'. Is it is impossible, however, to find any information about the horrifying genocide of Russian people that preceded the war.

When it comes to Afghanistan American politicians call it terrorism. When it comes to Chechnya American politicians call it nothing.
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:00 AM
 
14,780 posts, read 43,539,935 times
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You are looking at one very recent side of a much longer and broader conflict with plenty of blood on the hands of both. Chechens have been fighting Russians since the 18th century and Chechen desires for an independent state and reinforcement of their national identity have existed since the 1800's. The Chechens do something to try and gain greater autonomy Russia responds with brute force. Much of the current strife had its roots in WW2 and Operation Lentil.

The Soviets accused the Chechen-Ingush population of conspiring with and supporting German forces. The result was that beginning in 1944 virtually the entire population was deported to other areas, primarily the Central Asian steppes and Siberia. Estimates are that as many as 25% of the Chechen population died in the transit. Their homes and farms were given over to refugees from other areas of the western Soviet Union, primarily ethnic Russians. Many Chechen historical sites, including all of their medieval texts and mosques were simply destroyed. Chechen place names were replaced with Russian place names. Graveyards were simply ploughed under and the gravestones used in the foundations of buildings and walkways. Those who resisted deportation were simply killed by the NKVD. The "Chechen-Ingush Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic" was dissolved and replaced with the Grozny Oblast, Dagestan ASSR, North Ossetian ASSR and the Georgian SSR.

In 1957 after the death of Stalin, Krushchev lifted the deportation and travel restrictions and restored the Chechen-Ingush ASSR and allowed the former ethnic groups that inhabited the area to return. Of course, the refugees that had been settled there didn't just turn around and leave and kept the property they had taken. There was tension between ethnic Chechens and ethnic Russians throughout the Soviet period just as there were in many areas (such as Moldova) where large numbers of Russians were settled and the native population reduced to a quasi-second class status.

When the Soviet Union fell, nationalism rose in many of the former Republics and very accutely in Chechnya as long pent-up backlash against the Russians living in Chechnya played out.

I am not trying to excuse terrorism or the actions of certain Chechens. Merely trying to point out that the conflict between Russians and Chechens has a very deep history and includes an act that played out between 1944-1957 that has been classified as "genocide" by the European Parliament. That was followed-up by a 30+ year period where Chechens were quasi-second class citizens in their own ancestral territory. Overall, it's not that surprising what has been playing out there over the past 20+ years.
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:44 AM
 
26,709 posts, read 22,332,762 times
Reputation: 9994
Quote:
Originally Posted by Origin of Symmetry View Post
Recently I've met some man on the forum who as I guess believe that Boston terrorists from Chechnya are sort of an exception. He thinks that terrorism has nothing to do with Chechnya. That really pissed me off since the man doesn't even know the history of recent years. This was the reason I started to think over how biased and corrupt some of the American politicians and mass media are when it comes to news about countries (be it Russia or China or else) America doesn't have a very friendly relationship with. Brainwashing is a common thing in this case.

I personally know some Russian people who had to leave Chechnya in the 90s. I used to work with them. They had to leave the region since the Chechens made the ethnic cleansing (when I say Chechens I mean only those who used to be terrorists or criminals since it is clear that there used to be a lot of peaceful Chechens who did not commit any murders or other crimes). Chechens robbed the houses of Russians, they raped Russian women, they atrociously killed Russian women and men. They even killed kids, for god sake. Why? Just because they were Russians. They did it with the utter severity like chopping the heads, arms or legs off. The Russian people were afraid to walk the streets. They lived in the constant fear. They were extremely suppressed. Chechens killed not only Russians but other nations in the region too like Ukrainians, Tartars, or Jews. Why? The answer is simple enough. They did not belong to the Chechen people. You won't believe it but back in the 90s there used be even slavery. Chechens kidnapped Russians and sold them as slaves to other Chechens.

Many of the Russian mass media covered these events, they wrote about it, they published some horrifying stories, they published photos of mutilated bodies, threatening signs on walls like, "Russians, we will slaughter you all" or "Don't buy apartments from Russians since we are going to take them away for free".

Just considerer this. Russians used to be around the 30 percent of all population in that region at the end of the 80s. Now there is about 1 percent of Russians in that region. Many of them were killed by Chechens and many of them had to move to other regions where it was safe.

When I tried to google any information about the genocide of Russians by Chechens on American web sites I found nothing. Nothing! I really could not believe it. I can provide a lot of articles in Russian and yet I can't find even one in English. This is just mind-boggling. Yeah, we all know there is a brainwashing and censorship in China and Russia. However, there is a brainwashing and censorship in the States, too.
I know that Russia and America never were too much friendly and yet when American politicians conceal and deny the genocide that used to be... It is. I don't even have a word for it. It is inhuman to say at least. American mass media often represented it other way round trying to show that bad Russians killed innocent Chechen rebels.

I also know that later the war broke out mainly because of that genocide. During the war some innocent Russians and Chechens were killed by Russian and Chechen military forces. However, it is another long story. It happened later as a result of that genocide mostly. It is no brainer to find that information in the American mass media under the titles like 'War in Chechnya. Bad Russian soldiers kill peaceful Chechen rebels'. Is it is impossible, however, to find any information about the horrifying genocide of Russian people that preceded the war.

When it comes to Afghanistan American politicians call it terrorism. When it comes to Chechnya American politicians call it nothing.
Yes, what's described here is true, including Chechens using their captives as slaves - that has been their practice in the 1800ies as well.
The way I see it, Americans will never understand the Old World, will never understand the fact that not anything and everything ( meaning the internal international conflicts) can be resolved in a "rational manner," because the Old World has its own rationality based on spiritual drive, be that spiritual drive of a positive or negative nature and there is no way to stop the crime and hatred, but only to take sides.
I've already expressed my opinion that if Chechens would have been thrown out of Caucasus already in the 1800ies - that would have been the best solution for the region. No one needs Sharia law in Caucasus and the only way to get rid of this threat there is to get rid of Chechens all together.
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Old 05-09-2013, 10:50 AM
 
31,387 posts, read 36,945,142 times
Reputation: 15038
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
The way I see it, Americans will never understand the Old World, will never understand the fact that not anything and everything ( meaning the internal international conflicts) can be resolved in a "rational manner," because the Old World has its own rationality based on spiritual drive, be that spiritual drive of a positive or negative nature and there is no way to stop the crime and hatred, but only to take sides.
I've already expressed my opinion that if Chechens would have been thrown out of Caucasus already in the 1800ies - that would have been the best solution for the region. No one needs Sharia law in Caucasus and the only way to get rid of this threat there is to get rid of Chechens all together.
Excuse me Erasure, but where do you think large portions of the American population come from, and where do you think American racial and ethnic prejudice come from in the first place?

By the way, wasn't it you in another thread that said something about there not being ethnic tensions in the Soviet Union? Let's be consistent shall we.
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Old 05-09-2013, 11:02 AM
 
Location: New Mexico
471 posts, read 973,476 times
Reputation: 753
I always wonder about those places of generational strife where no one can seem to see that every action usually causes an equal reaction from the opposing force. Do the Chechens truely believe that if they attack the Russians enough that Russia will just go "Oh Well" and build an iron curtain wall between them? Do the Russians really believe that when they react with force or other means that the Chechens will throw up there hands in the same way?? It makes no sense to me at all. I am of the opinion that there are large groups on both sides that simply like to keep the conflicts going. Maybe they have hidden agendas, nothing really else to do, or they think they will profit somehow in the final end game. These type of situations have no solution other than when forward thinking people take all the emotional baggage out of the equation and finally say that this has to stop, no matter how many "unrevenged" incidents there are still in queue on both sides. But these people are usualy silenced by those who like to keep the fight going and both sides seem to loose track if there really was any practical goal after all....
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Old 05-09-2013, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Chicagoland
338 posts, read 926,354 times
Reputation: 487
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
Much of the current strife had its roots in WW2 and Operation Lentil.
If this is so, then why do the various other nationalities deported during WW2 not react in such a violent manner?

Why do we not hear of terrorism from Crimean Tatars, Volga Germans, or Kalmyks?
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Old 05-09-2013, 11:56 AM
 
14,780 posts, read 43,539,935 times
Reputation: 14621
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josef K. View Post
If this is so, then why do the various other nationalities deported during WW2 not react in such a violent manner?

Why do we not hear of terrorism from Crimean Tatars, Volga Germans, or Kalmyks?
I was trying to express that the conflict has been raging for a long time with the deportation being a particularly important moment in Russo-Chechen relations.

That deep seeded conflict between ethnic Chechens and ethnic Russians is what gave rise to the nationalist movements in Chechnya and the overwhelming support for full independence. The fact that there was a strong secessionist/independence movement supported by the majority of the Chechens is hardly something to be debated. Russia wanted to hold onto the territory and after the factions they back failed to secure power, they intervened militarily. That denial of the Chechen desire for full independence and the use of military power to enforce the Russian hold on the territory is what sparked the current conflict. As it's drug on it has transformed into an Islamic struggle moreso than a nationalist one.

In the case of the rest, they are smaller in numbers and have a wider spread diaspora with few living in their ancestral homelands. Crimean Tatars in the Ukraine have some localized autonomy and representatives in the government. Volga Germans are spread around with few living in their traditional areas and most emigrated to Germany after the collapse. The Kalmyks never had a strong nationalist movement.
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:38 PM
 
26,709 posts, read 22,332,762 times
Reputation: 9994
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
I was trying to express that the conflict has been raging for a long time with the deportation being a particularly important moment in Russo-Chechen relations.

That deep seeded conflict between ethnic Chechens and ethnic Russians is what gave rise to the nationalist movements in Chechnya and the overwhelming support for full independence. The fact that there was a strong secessionist/independence movement supported by the majority of the Chechens is hardly something to be debated. Russia wanted to hold onto the territory and after the factions they back failed to secure power, they intervened militarily. That denial of the Chechen desire for full independence and the use of military power to enforce the Russian hold on the territory is what sparked the current conflict. As it's drug on it has transformed into an Islamic struggle moreso than a nationalist one.

In the case of the rest, they are smaller in numbers and have a wider spread diaspora with few living in their ancestral homelands. Crimean Tatars in the Ukraine have some localized autonomy and representatives in the government. Volga Germans are spread around with few living in their traditional areas and most emigrated to Germany after the collapse. The Kalmyks never had a strong nationalist movement.
So what you are saying is that because others are "smaller in numbers" they don't have tenedency to decapitate their enemies or to take hostages, or to blow up schools?
And why should nationalist struggle all of a sudden turn into Jihad?
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Old 05-09-2013, 04:10 PM
 
31,387 posts, read 36,945,142 times
Reputation: 15038
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
So what you are saying is that because others are "smaller in numbers" they don't have tenedency to decapitate their enemies or to take hostages, or to blow up schools?
And why should nationalist struggle all of a sudden turn into Jihad?
Taking the liberty to respond for NJ, I don't know from what statement you used to conjured up that question.
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Old 05-09-2013, 06:17 PM
 
26,709 posts, read 22,332,762 times
Reputation: 9994
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Excuse me Erasure, but where do you think large portions of the American population come from, and where do you think American racial and ethnic prejudice come from in the first place?
I am not sure what your question is all about. Are you trying to say that white Americans are the same thing as Europeans? Then please don't let me to refer you to Europe's section, where the chorus of Europeans will beg you different.

Quote:
By the way, wasn't it you in another thread that said something about there not being ethnic tensions in the Soviet Union? Let's be consistent shall we.
I am consistent and I've explained that if there were ethnic tensions in the Soviet Union, their history goes back to Imperial times, with exception of Baltic states. Back in Tzarist times they were quite content to be protected by Russia from Germans as far as I remember.
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