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...........It seemed like you were implying that the crucifixion of Jesus had something to do with Pilate being recalled, but it did not. The only mention of Jesus and Pilate was contained in the writings of Josephus which I posted. It makes a passing reference that Jesus was apparently executed by Pilate, but that's it............
Didn't mean to imply that it was a tit for tat exchange. What got Pilate in hot water was, as you say, the situation in Judea was getting out of hand. Jesus in particular was not much of an an issue.
I would imagine that Tiberius occassionally remembered the lessons of Varus in the Teutoburg Forest. If things get out of control so far from home, some very bad things can happen
I'm sure you have read everything I have about the final disposition of Pilate. Not much is known. But I sure as hell would not have wanted to be dragged before Caligula. The only thing that may have saved Pilate is that he may have been seen by Caligula before Caligula became insane. That date is generally agreed upon as Oct, 37 CE. Probably Pilate arrived in Rome before then.
Same with Paul, under Nero. Lots of legends and stories, but it was a long time ago and records are sometimes hard to come by.
But the fact that we are having these discussions pretty much puts Jesus at a certain place in history.
This goes toward the early schism among Jesus followers....was this movement an extension of the Jewish faith or was it a replacement covenant? For the Judeo-Christians, who sought converts from among Jews, it becomes important that the story says that Jesus was killed by the Romans, not the Jews. For the replacement religion group who were preaching to the Roman gentile world, it was important that Jesus was killed by the Jews, not the Romans. What happens in the gospels is very much related to the agendas of the writers.
No doubt, but even a casual reading shows that by the time they were written, the agenda was to make the Jews the principal scapegoat, and let Pilate off as lightly as possible. So why bring Pilate into it at all, unless his part in the events was still remembered?
No doubt, but even a casual reading shows that by the time they were written, the agenda was to make the Jews the principal scapegoat, and let Pilate off as lightly as possible. So why bring Pilate into it at all, unless his part in the events was still remembered?
The Romans allowed Judea to be administered by the Sanhedrin, but reserved the right of executions to themselves. The story requires the Roman prelate for credibility's sake. That does not mean events unfolded as described. The level of Pilate's involvement may have been no more than having someone report to him "Those dry brained High Priests are all hot and bothered again. They arrested yet another Messiah last night and want to kill him for some foolish reason having to do with their oddball little religion. What shall I tell them? They seem really agitated." Pilate then asks "Is this messiah anyone important?" On learning that it is just another peasant preacher Pilate signs off on the execution.
Or maybe not. We do not know. Since only Romans citizens had the right to a trial, the idea of Jesus receiving one, and especially the idea of the Roman prelate bothering to preside over such a small potatoes affair, is questionable.
This all goes to the same basic problem. All of our information comes from unknown and prejudicial sources. What we know of the biography of Jesus is akin to the people 2000 years from now having only the writings of Charles Manson's cult followers to tell them who Charlie Manson was.
Last edited by Grandstander; 05-14-2013 at 08:07 AM..
The Romans allowed Judea to be administered by the Sanhedrin, but reserved the right of executions to themselves. The story requires the Roman prelate for credibility's sake. That does not mean events unfolded as described.
Is any Roman prelate mentioned in connection with the martyrdom of St Stephen?
Didn't mean to imply that it was a tit for tat exchange. What got Pilate in hot water was, as you say, the situation in Judea was getting out of hand. Jesus in particular was not much of an an issue.
I would imagine that Tiberius occassionally remembered the lessons of Varus in the Teutoburg Forest. If things get out of control so far from home, some very bad things can happen
I'm sure you have read everything I have about the final disposition of Pilate. Not much is known. But I sure as hell would not have wanted to be dragged before Caligula. The only thing that may have saved Pilate is that he may have been seen by Caligula before Caligula became insane. That date is generally agreed upon as Oct, 37 CE. Probably Pilate arrived in Rome before then.
Same with Paul, under Nero. Lots of legends and stories, but it was a long time ago and records are sometimes hard to come by.
lol, very true. I'd prefer not having to answer to Caligula if given the choice. It seems that the fate of Pilate is split between execution and banishment, though there are a lot of interesting stories/legends related to him in Germany/Austria/Switzerland.
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But the fact that we are having these discussions pretty much puts Jesus at a certain place in history.
That it does. Again, I don't think people were necessarily debating the probably conclusion that Jesus existed, they were more or less arguing that absent the Gospels and other religious writing, we have very little evidence of the historical Jesus.
Is any Roman prelate mentioned in connection with the martyrdom of St Stephen?
No and that question is one frequently brought up. GS is quite correct that only the Roman Prelate would have had the authority to impose a death sentence. The reason often cited for why bring Jesus to Pilate, but just murder St. Stephen is thus...
Jesus had gained a good deal of fame and notoriety among all classes in Judea. Remember the throngs that gathered to greet him when he entered Jerusalem? While an independent violent mob could have probably gotten away with stoning Jesus, the Sanhedrin feared the reprisal of the people if they killed Jesus. They brought Jesus to Pilate not out of respect for Roman law, but because they didn't want to be implicated for the death and deal with any fallout.
As St. Stephen was a far less popular person and his stoning was done by a mob in response to his statements at his trial, the Sanhedrin had little to worry about in terms of fallout. Basically, the Sanhedrin would have loved to just take Jesus out and stone him to death, but they feared the fallout from doing so. St. Stephen ran very little risk of causing a political problem for the Sanhedrin as it was "just the stoning of a random Hellenistic Jew".
Jesus had gained a good deal of fame and notoriety among all classes in Judea. Remember the throngs that gathered to greet him when he entered Jerusalem? While an independent violent mob could have probably gotten away with stoning Jesus, the Sanhedrin feared the reprisal of the people if they killed Jesus. They brought Jesus to Pilate not out of respect for Roman law, but because they didn't want to be implicated for the death and deal with any fallout.
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In support of the above theory, the gospel stories have it that the Sanhedrin bribed Judas to betray Jesus so that they could locate him at a time when he was not surrounded by crowds of people. That certainly implies that the High Priests feared a volatile reaction from the people should they attempt to put the arm on Jesus in anything other than a clandestine manner. And the gospels have it that the arrest was conducted in a stealthy manner. They came at night when as they expected, the apostles were all sleeping and no one else was around.
Of course we do not know with any certainty how much of the story might have been invention designed to elevate the status of Jesus as someone important.
Of course we do not know with any certainty how much of the story might have been invention designed to elevate the status of Jesus as someone important.
We could say the same about St. Stephen...
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