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Old 05-26-2013, 03:24 PM
 
60 posts, read 73,016 times
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There are some good reasons to suggest that nukes did not cause Japan to surrender. There are some good reasons to think that the USSR declaring war on Japan was a more direct cause of their surrender. There are also some important reasons for why Japan and the USA would both later claim that nukes were the reason for Japanese surrender in the years following WWII.

The case for this has been laid out by several historians now, here is one article that clearly and concisely expresses this argument: The Winning Weapon? Rethinking Nuclear Weapons in Light of Hiroshima
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Old 05-26-2013, 03:40 PM
 
Location: Las Flores, Orange County, CA
26,338 posts, read 93,537,811 times
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We don't even know who killed Kennedy or if Pearl Harbor was a preventable non-sneak attack.

How are we supposed to know anything about murky events that occurred 70 years ago in an environment with a much less aggressive, much weaker press?
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Old 05-26-2013, 04:42 PM
 
60 posts, read 73,016 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles View Post
We don't even know who killed Kennedy or if Pearl Harbor was a preventable non-sneak attack.

How are we supposed to know anything about murky events that occurred 70 years ago in an environment with a much less aggressive, much weaker press?
Well the kind of documents used by historians would include the discussions of Japan's supreme council and the private journals and correspondence of government officials. It's pretty clear from these kinds of sources that the nuclear attacks did not weigh heavily on the minds of Japanese officials, especially since about 60 cities had already been destroyed prior to Hiroshima. After the Hiroshima attack the supreme council didn't meet for 3 days. But after the Russians declare war on them they meet within hours and begin talking of surrender.

Last edited by Mr_Spock; 05-26-2013 at 06:01 PM..
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Old 05-26-2013, 05:22 PM
 
9,981 posts, read 8,553,678 times
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Japan tried to surrender, was ready to surrender, but TPTB wanted
to test the bomb, to see what happened.
The Japanese offered to surrender before America dropped Atomic Bombs on them! - LIBRARY OF MOST CONTROVERSIAL FILES
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Old 05-26-2013, 07:24 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,139 posts, read 22,742,546 times
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Hiroshima happened on August 6 and Nagasaki August 9. The Soviets declared war on Aug 9 so it seems unlikely that was what convinced Japan to surrender. If anything, the Soviet declaration was an opportunistic move by Stalin who could have provided little support anyway, considering how battered the USSR was at the time.

In the end the fault lies with (Imperial) Japan. By 1945 the Japanese leadership knew there was no possible way they could win; the best they could hope for was a settlement that would leave them in power.

Of course, the continued existence of Imperial Japan was not acceptable and we warned them they would be faced with "prompt and utter destruction" with the Postdam Declaration two week earlier and they did not respond.

When Hirohito gave his famous speech notifying the Japanese of the surrender he referenced the A-bomb attacks and said it would not only mean the end for Japan, but the entire world. I guess that's debatable (and may still hold true someday, god forbid) but if you put this all together it seems pretty clear that history is right and we can credit the A Bomb with finally forcing the Imperialists to fall to their knees.

Truth be told, the atomic attacks were the less destructive of the two potential options; an all-out invasion of the Japanese Islands would have brought about the same end results but at terrible cost; not only to our forces but to what was left of Japan.

The Bomb saved more lives than it took in 1945... American, Soviet AND Japanese. They made the right choice.
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Old 05-26-2013, 07:29 PM
 
20,948 posts, read 18,997,876 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Spock View Post
There are some good reasons to suggest that nukes did not cause Japan to surrender. There are some good reasons to think that the USSR declaring war on Japan was a more direct cause of their surrender. There are also some important reasons for why Japan and the USA would both later claim that nukes were the reason for Japanese surrender in the years following WWII.

The case for this has been laid out by several historians now, here is one article that clearly and concisely expresses this argument: The Winning Weapon? Rethinking Nuclear Weapons in Light of Hiroshima
Don't be ridiculous.
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Old 05-26-2013, 08:53 PM
 
60 posts, read 73,016 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Hiroshima happened on August 6 and Nagasaki August 9. The Soviets declared war on Aug 9 so it seems unlikely that was what convinced Japan to surrender.
How is it unlikely. Japan had almost 60 cities destroyed through firebombing. Then two more through nukes which their officials did not view as a significant change in the situation. But then as soon as the USSR declares war on them they surrender.

Quote:
If anything, the Soviet declaration was an opportunistic move by Stalin who could have provided little support anyway, considering how battered the USSR was at the time.
One of the only military assets the Japanese had was 1.2 million man army in Manchuria. Once the Soviets invade on Aug 9th, its a bloodbath and over 80k Japanese are already dead and 600k captured with comparatively fewer (9000) Soviet deaths. So not only was their soviet diplomatic option off the table but they were simply no match for the Soviets on land.

Quote:
When Hirohito gave his famous speech notifying the Japanese of the surrender he referenced the A-bomb attacks and said it would not only mean the end for Japan, but the entire world.
By Aug 9 Hirohito did seem to understand that these nuclear bombs were more destructive. But throughout all of the internal discussions this was only an afterthought. Even to the point of it being described as possibly a good opportunity to surrender. The Japanese government certainly had a good incentive to advertise the idea that the surrender was due to nuclear weapons (even though it wasn't). If they had been defeated through lack of strength, strategy, and foresight, it would be dishonorable. If they had been defeated by an unpredictable and powerful new technology then they couldn't be faulted for that.

Quote:
an all-out invasion of the Japanese Islands would have brought about the same end results but at terrible cost; not only to our forces but to what was left of Japan.

The Bomb saved more lives than it took in 1945... American, Soviet AND Japanese. They made the right choice.
Since it didn't actually end the war, it didn't save any lives. What you're saying is based on a false dilemma too. A continued blockade and conventional bombings could have forced a surrender. That is was did it, in conjunction with the Soviet entry.

Their government officials talked frequently at length about the growing dissent from starvation and suffering by the population. They felt the people were going to rebel and they were more afraid of that and thought/discussed more about that than they ever did about the nuclear bomb.
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Old 05-26-2013, 09:48 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,139 posts, read 22,742,546 times
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...which is why the invasion of Japan was actively being planned out and organized for late 1945?

Operation Downfall - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can bet your bottom dollar America fully intended to finish the job. Containment was not in the gameplan.
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Old 05-27-2013, 06:08 AM
 
9,981 posts, read 8,553,678 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
The Bomb saved more lives than it took in 1945... American, Soviet AND Japanese. They made the right choice.
Good boy, you recited the official propaganda just as it was taught to you.
Perfect example of garbage-in, garbage-out.
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Old 05-27-2013, 07:02 AM
 
Location: Twin Cities
5,833 posts, read 7,672,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7 View Post
Good boy, you recited the official propaganda just as it was taught to you.
Perfect example of garbage-in, garbage-out.
Good boy, you defended the conspiracy theory just as it was taught to you.
Perfect example of garbage-in, garbage-out.
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