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Old 06-11-2013, 11:49 PM
 
Location: State Fire and Ice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
^

What he said, GreyKarast.

What you are talking about though, ( since as usual I understand only half of it ) is most likely described in Russian Wikipedia as "pseudoscience."

Та€‚а€и� €” ’икипеди�

( Your maps are there as well I think...)
Why as a pseudo science? Maps also false science? Cartographers, artists and foreign putishestvenniki also pseudo-science?Davyte even determine - What is foreign Wikipedia encyclopedia. She has also written by anyone. No scientific figures.Article I threw - You can follow any responses to check finding books, maps and historical people referred. All descriptions of people (who are witnesses) referred to known and very well.

Last edited by GreyKarast; 06-11-2013 at 11:59 PM..
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Old 06-12-2013, 01:21 AM
 
Location: State Fire and Ice
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TARTARY, a vast country in the northern parts of Asia, bounded by Siberia on the north and west: this is called Great Tartary. The Tartars who lie south of Muscovy and Siberia, are those of Astracan, Circassia, and Dagistan, situated north-west of the Caspian-sea; the Calmuc Tartars, who lie between Siberia and the Caspian-sea; the Usbec Tartars and Moguls, who lie north of Persia and India; and lastly, those of Tibet, who lie north-west of China.

(Encyclopedia Britannica, Vol. III, Edinburgh, 1771, p. 887).
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Old 06-12-2013, 01:31 AM
 
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Information of Great Tartary also survived a 6-volume encyclopedia of Spanish Diccionario Geografico Universal 1795 edition, and is already in a somewhat modified form, in the later editions of Spanish encyclopedias. For example, in 1928 the Spanish encyclopedia Enciclopedia Universal Ilustrada Europeo-Americana, a fairly extensive article on Tartary, which begins with the 790-th page and take about 14 pages. In this article, a lot of accurate information about the homeland of our ancestors - the Great Tartary, but in the end is already affecting "spirit of the times", and there are inventions that are familiar to us today.

There are many other encyclopedias do they say about Russia as TARTARO_MONGOLY. Year encyclopedia see what? Mongol hordes did not exist at the time.
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Great Tartary-1.jpg   Great Tartary-2.jpg   Great Tartary-3.jpg   Great Tartary-4.jpg   Great Tartary-5.jpg  

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Old 06-12-2013, 02:18 AM
 
Location: State Fire and Ice
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Around the end of the 18th century, after the Great Tartary was defeated in World War I, known to us from the course of school history as the "Pugachev's Rebellion" of 1773-1775., Is the name on the card was gradually replaced by the Russian Empire, but independent and Chinese Tartary still appear until the beginning of XIX century. After this time, the word disappears from Tartary cards in general, and replaced by other names. For example, China Tartarus was called Manchuria. All of the above applies to foreign cards. At the same Russian language card with Tartary generally remained insignificant amount, at least, in the public domain. For example, there is a map of 1707 W. Kiprianova "Image Globe Earth" and a map of Asia in 1745. This situation suggests that the information about the Great Empire Russov thoroughly destroyed.

However, something still remains, and finally came to the masses. One of the most important works are books and maps of the outstanding Russian cartographer and chronicler of Siberia Remezov.

In 1696 Remezov was charged with drafting a drawing of all the Siberian land. This work marked the beginning of a unique research that came to us in the form of geographical atlases "Horograficheskaya drawing book" (1697-1711), "Drawing book of Siberia" (1699-1701) and "Inside drawing book of Siberia" (1702), and chronicles book "Chronicle of Siberian Kungurskaya Brief" and "Siberian History" and ethnographic works, "Description of the Siberian peoples, and the faces of their lands."


"Draft Book of Siberia" Remezov and his three sons can be called the first Russian geographical atlas. It consists of a preface and 23 large-format maps covering the entire territory of Siberia and the differing abundance of information and detail. The book contains handwritten drawings lands: City of Tobolsk and planted with the streets of the city of Tobolsk, Tara city of Tyumen city of Turin jail, Vehoturskogo city Pelymsky city and other towns and surrounding areas.

"Drawing book of Siberia" "made no degree network of parallels and meridians, and on some maps at the top of the west and east, respectively, at the bottom, and sometimes south placed in the upper left corner, and the north - in the lower right, but most cards are not focused to the north, as we used to, and to the south. So Wall of China is unusual in the upper right-hand corner. Note that from her, and the Amur River (present-day territory of China) in the XVII century, all the names were Russian. Also note that some of the above names of Great Tartary is "Land of the Cossack Horde." Given the orientation from south to north, it may well be the land of Kazakstan, recently renamed in Kazakhstan.

In the absence of a grid meridian Remezov tied its cartographic image to a network of river and land routes. It extracted information in his "mission", and questioned other service people, locals and travelers. According to his own testimony of such inquiries, he learned "the best of the land and the path length of cities, their villages and townships, learned about rivers, streams and lakes and the coast about Pomorskie, lips, islands and marine fisheries and about all sorts of natural boundaries."

Unfortunately, it took 300 years to the life work of the Russian people saw descendants. The last entry in it was made in 1730, after which it disappeared from view. We know that the next time she was seen in 1764 in the personal library of Catherine II. She then migrated to the Hermitage, and in the middle of the XIX century, was transferred to the Public Library of St. Petersburg. And since then, knew about it only a very narrow specialists. The other is his work "Horograficheskaya drawing book" (the primary drawing materials) and all will be overseas. In 1919, it will take out an emigrant - a historian of cartography LS Gaffs. It surfaced in 1958 and now it is in the library of Harvard University CAMBRIDGE (U.S.)
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Great Tartary-foto-108.jpg   Great Tartary-foto-109.jpg   Great Tartary-foto-110.jpg   Great Tartary-foto-111.jpg   Great Tartary-foto-112.jpg  

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Old 06-12-2013, 04:08 AM
 
Location: State Fire and Ice
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map(Encyclopedia Britannica, Vol. III, Edinburgh, 1771, p. 887).
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Old 06-12-2013, 07:50 AM
 
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If Russia = Tartary, then why were the early rulers of Moscow tribute subjects of the Tatars? A situation which lasted until 1480. If Russia = Tartary, then why did the rulers of Moscow spend so much time conquering Tatars and various Khanates to expand and solidify their realm? If Russia = Tartary then why did the Kievan Rus dissolve from a united nation into disparate factions?
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Old 06-12-2013, 07:54 AM
 
Location: State Fire and Ice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
If Russia = Tartary, then why were the early rulers of Moscow tribute subjects of the Tatars? A situation which lasted until 1480. If Russia = Tartary, then why did the rulers of Moscow spend so much time conquering Tatars and various Khanates to expand and solidify their realm? If Russia = Tartary then why did the Kievan Rus dissolve from a united nation into disparate factions?
Tatarstan is not Tartarus. This is a completely different name. Read carefully and read encyclopedias and maps that I have provided.They are more than enough!
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:01 AM
 
Location: State Fire and Ice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
If Russia = Tartary, then why were the early rulers of Moscow tribute subjects of the Tatars? A situation which lasted until 1480. If Russia = Tartary, then why did the rulers of Moscow spend so much time conquering Tatars and various Khanates to expand and solidify their realm? If Russia = Tartary then why did the Kievan Rus dissolve from a united nation into disparate factions?
Tribute? Nebylo tribute. There were taxes. Always paid a tithe to the church and the Russian people in the Army. "Tithing" Always require ORTHODOX CHURCH. As we have seen, one tenth of the population of Russia was the natural replenishment of regular troops RUSSIAN - HORDE. This is not surprising, famous Horde was merely the Russian army. The army, which has never bloom, engaged in border security, war and so on, of course, has not been able to farm and maintain their own lives. Moreover, employment in agriculture was strictly forbidden to the Cossacks until the XVII century. It is well known and it is quite natural for the regular troops. They write about it, for example, and Pugachev in "Essays on the history of Russia," and Gordeev
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyKarast View Post
Tatarstan is not Tartarus. This is a completely different name. Read carefully and read encyclopedias and maps that I have provided.They are more than enough!
You are chasing a fantasy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyKarast View Post
Tribute? Nebylo tribute. There were taxes. Always paid a tithe to the church and the Russian people in the Army. "Tithing" Always require ORTHODOX CHURCH. As we have seen, one tenth of the population of Russia was the natural replenishment of regular troops RUSSIAN - HORDE. This is not surprising, famous Horde was merely the Russian army. The army, which has never bloom, engaged in border security, war and so on, of course, has not been able to farm and maintain their own lives. Moreover, employment in agriculture was strictly forbidden to the Cossacks until the XVII century. It is well known and it is quite natural for the regular troops. They write about it, for example, and Pugachev in "Essays on the history of Russia," and Gordeev
You want to know what undoes all of these claims? Prince Michael of Chernigov and his boyar Fedor. Perhaps you are familiar with the "Passion Sufferers of Chernigov"? You know the two most venerated Russian saints who were killed by Batu Kahn for refusing to renounce their Christianity and bow before the Kahn's fires and idols. You know, the men who have been official canonized saints of the Orthodox Church whose cult was officially recognized in 1547. You know, the men who Ivan IV had their relics removed from Chernihiv when it was conquered by the Poles in 1578 and placed in Moscow at the Church of Saint Michael the Archangel. You know, this church...



...the one that also served as the necropolis for all the Tsars including Ivan IV. The church that served as the location for celebrating all victories of the Imperial Russian military where services were conducted at the altar containing the relics of Prince Michael and Fedor. The church and relics that Russians feel serve as their personal representatives to God and are invoked in times of great strife and oppression.

Perhaps you are familiar with this great Russian painting. It depicts Saint Michael of Chernigov refusing to renounce his religion and bow to the idols. He is about to be struck down for his faith and become a great martyr...



This would be the story as related by Giovanni da Pian del Carpine aka Joannes de Plano. He was the first European to travel to the court of the Great Kahn on the orders of Pope Innocent IV. He wrote extensively of his travels and this is what he had to say about the incident with Saint Michael of Chernigov...

Quote:
(…) when Michael, one of the princes of Russia, came to submit to Bati, the Tartars first tried to make him pass between two fires. After this they said that he should bow south to Chingis Khan, but he replied that he would gladly bow to Bati and his servants but not to the image of a dead man because this is improper for a Christian. When he was repeatedly told through his son Yaroslav that he must bow, and yet he refused, Bati ordered Prince Michael killed if he would not bow. Prince Michael of Chernigov was passed between fires in accordance with ancient Turco-Mongol tradition. Batu Khan sent to stabbe him to death for his refusal to do obeisance to Chingis Khaan's shrine in the pagan ritual imposed by the conqueror. The prince replied that he "preferred to die rather than do what was wrong". Bati sent Michael to one of his followers who trampled on his chest with his boots until the prince died. Meanwhile the prince comforted one of his soldiers who stood near by him by saying: 'Be strong because your punishment will not last long and then at once eternal joy will follow.' After this his head was cut off quickly with a knife. The soldier, to tell the truth, also had his head cut off with a knife.

Giovanni DiPlano Caprini: The Story of the Mongols whom We Call the Tartars
This account is incredibly important in the mythology of Saint Michael of Chernigov as the Orthodox Church used the words of Giovanni as part of the evidence for martyrdom. I personally love what he named his book...The Story of the Mongols whom We Call the Tartars.

So, what is it? Either one of the greatest and most venerated Russian martyr's in the history of the Orthodox Church was killed by Batu Kahn the conqueror for refusing to renounce his Christianity...or it's all made up and Russians since 1245 have been believing in some wild fairy tale about "mythical conquerors from the east".
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:50 AM
 
Location: State Fire and Ice
3,079 posts, read 4,306,113 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
You are chasing a fantasy.



You want to know what undoes all of these claims? Prince Michael of Chernigov and his boyar Fedor. Perhaps you are familiar with the "Passion Sufferers of Chernigov"? You know the two most venerated Russian saints who were killed by Batu Kahn for refusing to renounce their Christianity and bow before the Kahn's fires and idols. You know, the men who have been official canonized saints of the Orthodox Church whose cult was officially recognized in 1547. You know, the men who Ivan IV had their relics removed from Chernihiv when it was conquered by the Poles in 1578 and placed in Moscow at the Church of Saint Michael the Archangel. You know, this church...

Yes, it was Russian. (But do not forget that lived in the territory not only Russian as it is today in Russia)The princes fought each other it was even in the history of Karamzin.


...the one that also served as the necropolis for all the Tsars including Ivan IV. The church that served as the location for celebrating all victories of the Imperial Russian military where services were conducted at the altar containing the relics of Prince Michael and Fedor. The church and relics that Russians feel serve as their personal representatives to God and are invoked in times of great strife and oppression.

Perhaps you are familiar with this great Russian painting. It depicts Saint Michael of Chernigov refusing to renounce his religion and bow to the idols. He is about to be struck down for his faith and become a great martyr...



This would be the story as related by Giovanni da Pian del Carpine aka Joannes de Plano. He was the first European to travel to the court of the Great Kahn on the orders of Pope Innocent IV. He wrote extensively of his travels and this is what he had to say about the incident with Saint Michael of Chernigov...



This account is incredibly important in the mythology of Saint Michael of Chernigov as the Orthodox Church used the words of Giovanni as part of the evidence for martyrdom. I personally love what he named his book...The Story of the Mongols whom We Call the Tartars.

So, what is it? Either one of the greatest and most venerated Russian martyr's in the history of the Orthodox Church was killed by Batu Kahn the conqueror for refusing to renounce his Christianity...or it's all made up and Russians since 1245 have been believing in some wild fairy tale about "mythical conquerors from the east".
Let's start with the fact that the Mongols on the cards - NO. Maps and Real Made encyclopedia and pictures as well. As for the stories. I know how to write books. But that does not meee as you see there is evidence proving the contrary. And SIstoriya which is written in the textbooks was not always interfacing and the time frame as well.
Of authentic history, we know that the Russian Church has always called on the people to fight against the foreign invaders. The only exception is its behavior in relation to "the alien invaders Mongols." And from the first day the conquest of Russian church has a heathen foreigners Mongols direct support. It is amazing that Metropolitan Kirill arrives in Kiev to Batu conquered from Novgorod who was not even the Mongols conquered! ALMOST ALL RUSSIAN monasteries were founded with the Mongols. It's not that strange? They kill the Russian Orthodox saints but are building a church?
Do you want to take a look at these Mongols? how they look and what they had clothing, weapons. wives, hats?

The great Mongol Empire allegedly left behind only a few meager inscriptions. One - on a rock, a couple of letters and ... romance. Frankly, a little bit. Moreover, the novel is written in the reality in Tatar, and not in Mongolian! Only letters, according to historians - "Mongol." This is possible after 300 years of CSI? Go ahead, we all "know" that the Mongol khans clothed all his decrees in the form of so-called labels. And these labels, according to the chronicles, was very high. Now, tell us - the true monuments of the great Mongolian script. But let's see - what today we know about them. It is believed that from time to time "Mongol yoke" in Russia there were many documents written IN RUSSIAN LANGUAGE: contracts princes, spiritual reading and writing, etc. You have to think that the "Mongolian" texts there are not less, as they came from the central government and were kept very thoroughly. And what we have in reality? We have two or three tabs found in the XIX century. And not in the public records, and the papers of historians.

How about the Slavic name of the Mongols? Why are most of the Horde Russian? Not a Mongol? If you were captured, you have a gun and you were in the majority. Why do not you destroyed the enemy?

Last edited by GreyKarast; 06-12-2013 at 10:15 AM..
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