U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > History
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-12-2013, 10:24 AM
 
Location: State Fire and Ice
3,093 posts, read 4,461,178 times
Reputation: 832

Advertisements

But the most fun! Maps speak for themselves.Just pictures and Encyclopedias.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-12-2013, 10:28 AM
 
14,778 posts, read 35,396,988 times
Reputation: 14329
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyKarast View Post
Let's start with the fact that the Mongols on the cards - NO. Maps and Real Made encyclopedia and pictures as well. As for the stories. I know how to write books. But that does not meee as you see there is evidence proving the contrary. And SIstoriya which is written in the textbooks was not always interfacing and the time frame as well.
Of authentic history, we know that the Russian Church has always called on the people to fight against the foreign invaders. The only exception is its behavior in relation to "the alien invaders Mongols." And from the first day the conquest of Russian church has a heathen foreigners Mongols direct support. It is amazing that Metropolitan Kirill arrives in Kiev to Batu conquered from Novgorod who was not even the Mongols conquered! ALMOST ALL RUSSIAN monasteries were founded with the Mongols. It's not that strange? They kill the Russian Orthodox saints but are building a church?
Do you want to take a look at these Mongols? how they look and what they had clothing, weapons. wives, hats?
I personally love how you use the Russian Church as your proving reference while that same Church relies upon the Mongol conquest to prove the martyrdom of one of its greatest saints.

Here is the official history of Saint Michael who is a well known historical figure. Whether one believes that Prince Michael is actually a saint or not is a matter of faith, however, he was a Rus Prince who was executed by Batu Kahn...

OCA - Martyr and Confessor Michael the Wonderworker of Chernigov

Some quotes...

Quote:
In 1223 Prince Michael took part in a council of Russian princes at Kiev, debating whether to aid the Polovetsians against the approaching Mongol-Tatar hordes. With the death of his uncle, Mstislav of Chernigov in the Battle at the Kalka River in 1223, St Michael became Prince of Chernigov.

Troublesome times ensued. In 1238 the Tatars (Mongols) laid waste to Ryazan, Suzdal, and Vladimir. In 1239 they moved against South Russia, and ravaged the left bank of the Dniepr River, and the lands of Chernigov and Pereyaslavl. By the autumn of 1240 the Mongols were coming close to Kiev. The khans emissaries proposed that Kiev surrender voluntarily, but the prince would not negotiate with them.

The prince did not abandon hope in the possibility of an united Christian Europe against the Asiatic nomads. In 1245, at the Council of Lyons in France, his co-worker Metropolitan Peter (Akerovich) was sent as emissary by St Michael, calling for a crusade to march against the pagan Horde.

In these circumstances affecting Christianity in general, there is a universal significance to the confessors deed of the martyred Orthodox Prince St Michael of Chernigov in the midst of the pagan Horde. In Rus emissaries of the khan soon appeared, in order to conduct a census of the Russian population and to impose taxes upon it.

The prince was ordered to make full submission to the Tatar khan, and for his princely realm, the khan would grant a special charter. The emissaries informed Prince Michael that it was necessary for him to journey to the Horde for an affirmation of rights to rule the princedom under the khans charter. Seeing the woeful plight of Rus, Prince Michael recognized the need to obey the khan, but as a fervent Christian he knew that he would not deny his faith before the pagans.

In 1246 when Prince Michael and the boyar Theodore arrived at the Horde, they were instructed on how to go to the khan, to proceed through a fire to cleanse them of their evil intents, and to worship the primal elements considered gods by the Mongols: the sun and fire. In answer to the pagan priests commanding them to perform the pagan rituals, the holy Prince replied, A Christian worships only God, the Creator of the world, and not creatures.

They reported to the khan about the firmness of the Russian Prince. Batus attendant Eldeg delivered the conditions: either fulfill the demands of the pagan priests, or die in torments. But this also was followed by the resolute answer of holy Prince Michael, I am prepared to submit to the emperor, since that God has entrusted him with the destiny of the earthly kingdoms, but as a Christian, I cannot worship idols. The fate of the brave Christians was sealed.

The confessors act of St Theodore amazed even his executioners. Persuaded of the Russian peoples steadfast fidelity to the Orthodox Faith , and their readiness to die for Christ with joy, the Tatar khans decided not to try the patience of God as before, and ceased demanding that Russians at the Horde perform any pagan rituals. But the struggle of the Russian nation and the Russian Church against the Mongol Yoke continued for yet a long time. The Orthodox Church was adorned in this struggle by new martyrs and confessors. Great Prince Theodore was poisoned by the Mongols. Also martyred were St Roman of Ryazan (+ 1270), St Michael of Tver (+ 1318), his sons Demetrius (+ 1325) and Alexander (+ 1339). All of these took courage from the example and holy prayers of the Russian Protomartyr of the Horde, St Michael of Chernigov.

On February 14, 1572, at the wish of Tsar Ivan Vasilievich the Terrible, and with the blessing of Metropolitan Anthony, the relics of the holy martyrs were transferred to Moscow, to the temple dedicated to them. From there in 1770 they were transferred to the Visitation cathedral, and on November 21, 1774 to the Archangel cathedral of the Moscow Kremlin.
So, the Orthodox Church says this is the history of Saint Michael. Why are they making up stories about Hordes, Khans, Tatars and Mongols?

To answer your direct question, no it's not strange. The lands that were conquered or surrendered remained in control of who had them originally and merely had to pay tribute and remain obedient to the Khan.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-12-2013, 10:54 AM
 
14,778 posts, read 35,396,988 times
Reputation: 14329
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyKarast View Post
The great Mongol Empire allegedly left behind only a few meager inscriptions. One - on a rock, a couple of letters and ... romance. Frankly, a little bit. Moreover, the novel is written in the reality in Tatar, and not in Mongolian! Only letters, according to historians - "Mongol." This is possible after 300 years of CSI? Go ahead, we all "know" that the Mongol khans clothed all his decrees in the form of so-called labels. And these labels, according to the chronicles, was very high. Now, tell us - the true monuments of the great Mongolian script. But let's see - what today we know about them. It is believed that from time to time "Mongol yoke" in Russia there were many documents written IN RUSSIAN LANGUAGE: contracts princes, spiritual reading and writing, etc. You have to think that the "Mongolian" texts there are not less, as they came from the central government and were kept very thoroughly. And what we have in reality? We have two or three tabs found in the XIX century. And not in the public records, and the papers of historians.

How about the Slavic name of the Mongols? Why are most of the Horde Russian? Not a Mongol? If you were captured, you have a gun and you were in the majority. Why do not you destroyed the enemy?
The Great Mongol Empire left behind plenty of writings in Mongol script, which is still used today. Here is one example of their writing from 1246:



It is the seal of Guyuk Kahn that was affixed to a letter he sent to Pope Innocent IV. The letter itself was written in Mongolian, Arabic and Latin. The translation in English is: "Under the Power of the Eternal Heaven, if the Decree of the Oceanic Khan of the Great Mongol Nation reaches people both subject or belligerent, let them revere, let them fear."

Mongol style writing as well as clothing is very noticable in European art throughout the 13th-15th century. This link from academic.ru, a Russian academic dictionary source details several examples of Mongol influence on western art and the incorporation of Mongol style script in many paintings:

Mongol elements in Western medieval art

Quote:
During the period of interaction between the Mongols and the West, from the late 13th century to early 14th century, some Italian painters incorporated Mongol script (particularly the 'Phags-pa script) into their religious painting. Examples can be seen especially in the frescos of the Upper Church of San Francesco at Assisi, or in the paintings of Giotto and related painters

These inscriptions often imitated the Mongol 'Phags-pa, probably discovered by the artists through Mongol paper money or paiza (travel passes) such as those Marco Polo was issued with during his travels. Frescos of Saint Jerome, Augustine and Pope Gregory I in the Church of San Francesco in Assisi (12961300) are known where they study books written in pseudo-Mongol. The famous Renaissance painter Giotto and his pupils often combined Arabic and 'Phags-pa script in their paintings. In Giotto's The Crucifixion (1304-1312/1313), soldiers wear tunics inscribed with pseudo-Mongol bands. In Giotto's Madonna and Child (13201330), the Virgin Mary's robe is decorated with a hem in a mix of Arabic and Mongol script. Giotto again used the Mongolian script in the Scrovegni Chapel.
Hate to break it to you, but the Mongolians were Mongolian, not Russian. The Russians were conquered and subjugated by the Mongols. At least according to every history of Russia.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-12-2013, 11:34 AM
 
Location: State Fire and Ice
3,093 posts, read 4,461,178 times
Reputation: 832
Remain obedient? Why remain slaves if Russian accounted for most of HORDE? Has not changed one face, is it possible? Always in any conquest changed the Granite State and principalities. Why Russian occupied glavnub role in the Horde? Here's a photo of Mongolia in the Russian apparel and with European liami.

1.Marco Polo clothe and Genghis Khan and his entourage in European clothes, crowning the Grand Commander crown with trehlistnikami, which has always been an attribute of European rulers. And the sword that holds the Genghis Khan has a shape that was peculiar to Russian swords!

2.Han Batu, Batu Khan, or rather, was a grandson of Tamerlane, Genghis Khan. This fact is recognized by modern historians, and it is written in the chronicles and other documents.
Of course looking at the bust, it is difficult to draw conclusions about what color his eyes and hair. But you can see more. Before our eyes, appears typical European with a thick beard, in terms of which there is absolutely not the slightest sign of Mongoloid!

3.A here's another source - "The Capture of Suzdal by Batu Khan in 1238. Thumbnail of "The Life of Euphrosyne of Suzdal XVI century. List of XVIII century ": In this miniature depicts Batu Khan in the crown, on a white horse, who is accompanied by his guards enters the city. His face is purely European, Turkic no way. And a Slavic army, is not it?!
On the other illustrations chronicle Batu Khan appears as a Russian Tsar with his Russian Warriors: So what Genghis Khan's grandson, Batu Khan, not far away from his grandfather in appearance.

4. Kublai Khan and Kubla Khan, as well as Batu Khan, the grandson of ChingisHana.Konechno same as the official history of the men see it as mongoloida.Te me, however, portrays Marco Polo Kublai European. In the "Book of the diversity of the world" is the illustration, where the arrival of Marco Polo is portrayed in the rate of Kublai Khan: Here again Kublai can not (n) goal, and European! Facial features, beard - all indications are that this is a man of European appearance.


And the wife of Kublai 4: As you can see, they are not representative of the Mongolian race, and looking like a typical ladies of medieval Europe. And in crowns with trehlistnikami and trehlistnik - it is a symbol of fighting Slavic-Aryan!

5. And here is another illustration of the "Book of the diversity of the world": It Kublai hands brothers Polo "golden dschitsu" and sends them to the ambassadors of the Pope. Again, look, apparel, attributes - all European!
I would also like to draw your attention to the "golden dschitsu." This is the so called golden paytsza. Paytsza - credentials tag, which is issued as a symbol of the delegation of authority, granting special powers. It would not be surprising, but paytszy belonging mo (n) Gol Khans were found on the territory of Russia. Not a paytszy on spaces of modern Mongolia was found! This is yet another confirmation of the tale of the "Tatar-Mongol" yoke.

6. Japanese scroll 13th century depicts Kublai hike on Japan:
Right on the scroll - a wounded Japanese soldier on the left - the medieval mo (n) goals. The painting can (n) Gol army of Kublai traditionally Russian clothes and boots. Noteworthy foot operation, typical of the tactics of ancient Russians, as well as traditional Russian armament: straight swords and bows complex. And pay attention to the flame-colored crest-Oseledets sticking out of the top of each of the three warriors can (n) Goals - part of appearance that are unique to the Slavs. But the most convincing - people do not leave any doubt as to their ethnicity.
The miniature of the "Scrolls of the Mongol invasion," you can see one of the ships of Kublai Khan: The ship can (n) Gol fleet mainly with Russian warriors! The same as the previous picture.

Those whom the Japanese call the medieval mo (n) goals - one hundred percent Slavs!

7.Earlier in Russia for the management of the state meet two people: Prince and Khan. Prince was responsible for the administration of the state in time of peace. Han or "war prince" took the reins of control over during the war, in time of peace on his shoulders, was responsible for the formation of the hordes of (army) and maintaining it in readiness.

Genghis Khan - it's not a name, and the title of "Prince of War," which, in the modern world, is close to the post of Chief of the Army. And the people who wore that title, there were several. The most prominent of these was Timur, that's the one usually referred to when talking about Genghis Khan.

In the surviving historical documents of the man described as a warrior tall with blue eyes, very white skin, a strong reddish hair and a thick beard. That does not correspond to the signs of Mongoloid, but fits the description of Slavic appearance.
When there Mongolia in the place where it is today? Mongolia has appeared at all - in 1921, the Red Army entered the territory of the country. 11.07.1921 in the town of Urga (now Ulan Bator) was proclaimed an independent gosudarstva.Gosudarstvo Mongolia appeared only in 1920-х, when to the nomads who live in the Gobi desert, the Bolsheviks came and told them that they - the descendants of the great Mongols and their "national" has created in his time a great empire, which they were surprised and delighted. The word "Mogul" is of Greek origin and means "the Great". Greeks called this word of our ancestors - Slavs. No relation to the name of a people, it has not. How to prove this card. Study them!! The current Mongolia 1920-х is on a completely different place.
Attached Thumbnails
Great Tartary-chingizhan4.jpg   Great Tartary-batu2.jpg   Great Tartary-batu3.jpg   Great Tartary-batu4.jpg   Great Tartary-hubilay2.jpg  

Great Tartary-hubilay3.jpg   Great Tartary-hubilay4.jpg   Great Tartary-hubilay5.jpg   Great Tartary-hubilay6.jpg  

Last edited by GreyKarast; 06-12-2013 at 12:29 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-12-2013, 07:40 PM
 
Location: State Fire and Ice
3,093 posts, read 4,461,178 times
Reputation: 832
NJGOAT,You can question about the letter to the Pope? This is the only letter in 300 years of Mongol domination? This is not funny? As for the letter itself, it is not done in Mongolian. By the way, "the original of this document Sarratsinskom(Persian) language found in the Vatican archives until 1920") In Russia knew sarrainsky language.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-12-2013, 09:27 PM
 
14,512 posts, read 13,211,340 times
Reputation: 6682
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyKarast View Post
Why as a pseudo science? Maps also false science? Cartographers, artists and foreign putishestvenniki also pseudo-science?Davyte even determine - What is foreign Wikipedia encyclopedia. She has also written by anyone. No scientific figures.Article I threw - You can follow any responses to check finding books, maps and historical people referred. All descriptions of people (who are witnesses) referred to known and very well.
Here is an explanation in Russian WIKI why this "New Chronology" ( from where your theories came) is pseudoscience.

Новая хронология (Фоменко) — Википедия

That's number one, number two - "foreign Wikipedia" is actually a good and reliable source of information (with "scientific figures" ), while I can't say the same about Wikipedia in Russian. Had to use it few times and when I compared articles on the same subject in English and Russian, I saw a big difference. In Russian they were written in a misleading and confusing way - not sure already whether it has been done deliberately or not.
But that was on *Western* subjects - "liberalism," "monopolies" and such, this article I gave you link to is talking about Russian author, so it should be OK I guess.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-12-2013, 09:38 PM
 
Location: State Fire and Ice
3,093 posts, read 4,461,178 times
Reputation: 832
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Here is an explanation in Russian WIKI why this "New Chronology" ( from where your theories came) is pseudoscience.

�ова� …€онологи� (Фоменко) €” ’икипеди�

That's number one, number two - "foreign Wikipedia" is actually a good and reliable source of information (with "scientific figures" ), while I can't say the same about Wikipedia in Russian. Had to use it few times and when I compared articles on the same subject in English and Russian, I saw a big difference. In Russian they were written in a misleading and confusing way - not sure already whether it has been done deliberately or not.
But that was on *Western* subjects - "liberalism," "monopolies" and such, this article I gave you link to is talking about Russian author, so it should be OK I guess.
You can say whatever you want. But facts are facts! Let refute them. You can follow any responses to do this? Where Mongolia on the cards? Why European putishestvenniki portray Mongol-Slavs. Not Asians? Why is there no letters in Mongolian for 300 years? You can follow any responses to explain it. As for Wikipedia is British eniklopediya. Lies which is more than enough. Bring the facts?
Modern historians can not explain the facts that I have laid out here. As for the history of Karamzin - it has so many errors that it becomes ridiculous. An example of time-shift for a hundred years. Why not talk about Tartarus history books. Compare - History of Russia (in the descriptions of the first Europeans in Russia under Ivan the Terrible) They write about Grozny as the great king, the people also in a positive light. But after the pope forbade the Terrible build churches in Russia. Europe begins to blacken the polls and the people of Russia. Just as today, the Western media...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-12-2013, 09:53 PM
 
Location: State Fire and Ice
3,093 posts, read 4,461,178 times
Reputation: 832
Let's look at this man - as you said, there Pseudo-Science?
1.Teorii Nikolai Viktorovich Levashova solely based on reality, never rely on postulates, and always have a practical confirmation and proof. Despite their surprise and unfamiliarity of the academic science, they gave a powerful impetus to discussions and research, for which in recent years have followed the sensational new discovery, perfectly illustrating and confirming his theory. For his scientific writings N.V.Levashov elected a member of the four academies.

Of course you can say that he speaks nonsense. But no one can deny the facts set out clearly. There are drawings, many testimonies Russian and European putishestvennikov, cartographers. We can see on the maps even the 19th century, there Tartary. But in the 20th century, the name disappears and nothing more upomenaetsya no where in Russian history. Why? But in the 1921 year Red Army creates a country called Mongolia (where it did not exist) This is not that strange?

Last edited by GreyKarast; 06-12-2013 at 10:15 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-12-2013, 10:13 PM
 
14,512 posts, read 13,211,340 times
Reputation: 6682
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyKarast View Post
Tribute? Nebylo tribute. There were taxes. Always paid a tithe to the church and the Russian people in the Army.
What "taxes?"

"Paying tribute" = "платить дань."

This particular painting depicts just that; the event signalling the end of the Tatar-Mongol yoke, with "Tsar Ivan III 1440-1505 Tearing the Deed of Tatar Khan" ( and ordering to kill his emissaries just in case that no one would miss his point)





You need to go to Soviet school and study Soviet history text-books, seriously)))

They've spoiled you too much with all that "freedom of thought" lately)))
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-12-2013, 10:27 PM
 
Location: State Fire and Ice
3,093 posts, read 4,461,178 times
Reputation: 832
I know ofiialnuyu history! Who wrote this and when Kartika in what year? Khan - On your picture Mongol? lol. You look it up yourself Caucasian.Clothing also Russian. Now, let's look at the icon.
70-80% of the army "Mongols" were Russian, the other 20-30% were other small nations of Russia, in fact, as it is now. This fact is evident from the passage of the icon of St. Sergius of Radonezh "Kulikov Battle." It clearly shows that both sides are fighting the same soldiers. And this battle is more like a civil war than a war against a foreign invader.

You can follow any responses to explain the maps and encyclopedias? When You will be able to( I agree with you.)
http://tainy.net/wp-content/uploads/...81-600x318.jpg
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > History
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. | Please obey Forum Rules | Terms of Use and Privacy Policy

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top