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Spain, in bad financial straits now, wants Gibralter because it is in good financial condition now. So, can Spain maintain Gibralter as it is now?
No, Spain is not going to maintain gibraltar as a tax haven, that is stupid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WIHS2006
When will Spain give up Ceuta and Melillia? Or how about Olivencia? Or what about Catalonia?
The people of Gibraltar are immensely proud to be British, they want to stay British and the world should respect their wishes. Last Tuesday 30,000 Gibraltarians were nearly unanimous in their chants of "British we are, British we stay". It's as simple as that ... Gibraltar will be British for as long as the Gibraltarians want to be British, but they will never become Spanish.
Ceuta and melilla aren't colonies, there's no claim over olivenza. Catalonia has nothing to do with a colony.
Spanish don't give a **** for the nationality of the rock, just stop been a tax haven and start to pay as someone from manchester or liverpool, gibraltar is a nest of criminals, good for corruption, drug dealers and gambling companies.
So, there never was a time when the British army had to evacuate Gibralter after a defeat. All right. Either what I read was wrong or I remember it wrong. Most likely the latter.
You may have read about the British surrendering Singapore to the Japanese in February 1942. Singapore was known as the 'Gibraltar of the East'.
Perhaps but my friend said she also read that story I did. I am thinking it may have been just one lost battle in a larger war. Not important now. Shan't fret over it.
The tradition/fable is that the British band played "The World Turned Upside Down" as the British army under Cornwallis marched out of Yorktown in 1781 to surrender to Washington and Rochambeau.
As for Gibraltar since being gained by Britain following the War of the Spanish Succession, it has never fallen or been lost. It endured the "Great Siege" from 1779 to 1783 and was one of the largest actions that American allies France and Spain took against Britain. The siege included an absolutely massive attack in 1782 that the garrison repulsed. The only time that Gibraltar had any sort of evacuation was the removal of the civilian population during WW2. The irony is that for as popular as Gibraltar is in the minds of Britons, it has never really been that incredibly necessary to possess strategically. Britain tried to give it back to Spain as soon as they received it in exchange for other concessions. Throughout the entire history British leaders have tried to give it back to Spain only to be vetoed by Parliament do to popular sentiment over Gibraltar. The "Rock" served as a major trade station (ships going from Britain to Egypt and vice versa) in the late 1700's and early 1800's, but this ended with the advent of steam ships. Up until the modern era Britain continued to hold it more for sentimental reasons than any strategic necessity. Now, it is a matter of what is in the best interest/wishes of the Gibraltarians themselves.
As for the comments on Arnold, I never remember it even being hinted that Arnold was the one hanged. Major John Andre, Arnolds contact with the British, was the one caught by an American sentry post and eventually sentenced to being hanged as a spy. Arnold was informed of Andres capture by his subordinate who was holding Andre and immediately fled to the British Army in New York City. Washington offered Andre in exchange for Arnold, but even though Sir Henry Clinton (British commander in New York) hated Arnold and liked Andre, he couldn't make the exchange. Andre was quite popular even among the American officers and comported himself with dignity and honor during his trial and hanging. His hanging is often seen as revenge for the hanging of Nathan Hale and the contrast of their trial as a microcosm for the differences between the Americans and British.
No, Spain is not going to maintain gibraltar as a tax haven, that is stupid.
Ceuta and melilla aren't colonies, there's no claim over olivenza. Catalonia has nothing to do with a colony.
Spanish don't give a **** for the nationality of the rock, just stop been a tax haven and start to pay as someone from manchester or liverpool, gibraltar is a nest of criminals, good for corruption, drug dealers and gambling companies.
Gibraltar isent a colony either, it is entirely self governing except for defense and foreign affairs.
The tradition/fable is that the British band played "The World Turned Upside Down" as the British army under Cornwallis marched out of Yorktown in 1781 to surrender to Washington and Rochambeau.
As for Gibraltar since being gained by Britain following the War of the Spanish Succession, it has never fallen or been lost. It endured the "Great Siege" from 1779 to 1783 and was one of the largest actions that American allies France and Spain took against Britain. The siege included an absolutely massive attack in 1782 that the garrison repulsed. The only time that Gibraltar had any sort of evacuation was the removal of the civilian population during WW2. The irony is that for as popular as Gibraltar is in the minds of Britons, it has never really been that incredibly necessary to possess strategically. Britain tried to give it back to Spain as soon as they received it in exchange for other concessions. Throughout the entire history British leaders have tried to give it back to Spain only to be vetoed by Parliament do to popular sentiment over Gibraltar. The "Rock" served as a major trade station (ships going from Britain to Egypt and vice versa) in the late 1700's and early 1800's, but this ended with the advent of steam ships. Up until the modern era Britain continued to hold it more for sentimental reasons than any strategic necessity. Now, it is a matter of what is in the best interest/wishes of the Gibraltarians themselves.
As for the comments on Arnold, I never remember it even being hinted that Arnold was the one hanged. Major John Andre, Arnolds contact with the British, was the one caught by an American sentry post and eventually sentenced to being hanged as a spy. Arnold was informed of Andres capture by his subordinate who was holding Andre and immediately fled to the British Army in New York City. Washington offered Andre in exchange for Arnold, but even though Sir Henry Clinton (British commander in New York) hated Arnold and liked Andre, he couldn't make the exchange. Andre was quite popular even among the American officers and comported himself with dignity and honor during his trial and hanging. His hanging is often seen as revenge for the hanging of Nathan Hale and the contrast of their trial as a microcosm for the differences between the Americans and British.
Right, they say The World Tuned Upside Down was played at Cornwallis's surrender. It's a lovely piece of music. I don't know what I had in mind - or think I read - about Gibralter. Shan't debate that one at all. As for Arnold, my friend found that yesterday in her fathers old history book - ca 1920s. All is says is he was caught and hanged. Of course, that was wrong, as you say. But history books are no more perfect than anything else. There is an old saying that you've probably heard: "History is written by the winners."
But as I said, it doesn't mater, just stop been a tax haven, that solve all the problem.
It is a colony and even Britain certified it as such in the 1940's. The argument is over whether territorial integrity rights of a nation supercede the right of self-determination of former colonies. Spain believes that national territorial integrity and security takes precedent and that Gibraltar should be returned. Britain argues that Gibraltar was given the right to self-determination, which supercedes all other claims and the people of Gibraltar chose to remain a British Overseas Territory.
Spain's argument is odd because they are still locked in an argument with Morocco over several territories, most notably Ceuta and Melilla. Ceuta and Melilla are both Spanish possessions in what is otherwise Morocco. Morocco has filed the same "territorial integrity and security" claims for Ceuta and Melilla that Spain has for Gibraltar. Of course, just to be completely ironic, Spain has made a counter claim that the people of Ceuta and Melilla desire to remain in Spain and that right should be acknowledged. This is of course, the same argument Britain has made over Gibraltar and Spain even cites the long period of time they have occupied the territory, same as Britain.
Additionally, the "tax haven" argument is a little facetious since Ceuta and Melilla were operated as "free ports" and were tax havens since they were "autonomous" cities within Spain. When Spain joined the EU, this status changed. So, Spain is again arguing over Gibraltar when they are in the same situation as Britain acorss the Strait in Morocco. Of course, Ceuta and Melilla are really "Spanish" despite being in Morocco whereas Gibraltar isn't really British since it's in Spain.
Britain does not cite the situation with Ceuta and Melilla in its defense of its right over Gibraltar as affirmed by the people there. If Spain is that upset about the Gibraltar tax haven, then why did they operate Ceuta as one until the EU forced an end to the practice? Even then Ceuta has a different and far lower tax system then mainland Spain.
Just for fun, here is a picture of the Strait of Gibraltar. On the left is Spain and the lone rock sitting on the isthmus of sand is of course Gibraltar. On the right is Morocco and the lone rock on the isthmus of sand sticking out towards the top of the picture is Ceuta. You can't make this stuff up, lol.
It is a colony and even Britain certified it as such in the 1940's. The argument is over whether territorial integrity rights of a nation supercede the right of self-determination of former colonies. Spain believes that national territorial integrity and security takes precedent and that Gibraltar should be returned. Britain argues that Gibraltar was given the right to self-determination, which supercedes all other claims and the people of Gibraltar chose to remain a British Overseas Territory.
Spain's argument is odd because they are still locked in an argument with Morocco over several territories, most notably Ceuta and Melilla. Ceuta and Melilla are both Spanish possessions in what is otherwise Morocco. Morocco has filed the same "territorial integrity and security" claims for Ceuta and Melilla that Spain has for Gibraltar. Of course, just to be completely ironic, Spain has made a counter claim that the people of Ceuta and Melilla desire to remain in Spain and that right should be acknowledged. This is of course, the same argument Britain has made over Gibraltar and Spain even cites the long period of time they have occupied the territory, same as Britain.
Additionally, the "tax haven" argument is a little facetious since Ceuta and Melilla were operated as "free ports" and were tax havens since they were "autonomous" cities within Spain. When Spain joined the EU, this status changed. So, Spain is again arguing over Gibraltar when they are in the same situation as Britain acorss the Strait in Morocco. Of course, Ceuta and Melilla are really "Spanish" despite being in Morocco whereas Gibraltar isn't really British since it's in Spain.
Britain does not cite the situation with Ceuta and Melilla in its defense of its right over Gibraltar as affirmed by the people there. If Spain is that upset about the Gibraltar tax haven, then why did they operate Ceuta as one until the EU forced an end to the practice? Even then Ceuta has a different and far lower tax system then mainland Spain.
Just for fun, here is a picture of the Strait of Gibraltar. On the left is Spain and the lone rock sitting on the isthmus of sand is of course Gibraltar. On the right is Morocco and the lone rock on the isthmus of sand sticking out towards the top of the picture is Ceuta. You can't make this stuff up, lol.
Thank you for that. A picture is worth a thousand words. What is the distance between the two?
Thank you for that. A picture is worth a thousand words. What is the distance between the two?
About 15 miles.
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