U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > History
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-29-2018, 11:01 AM
 
Location: San Diego CA
3,970 posts, read 2,972,212 times
Reputation: 6301

Advertisements

Well. What’s the definition of a structure? I grew up in Ohio where there was an ancient mound building culture that thrived for generations. Many of these mounds survived into the present time.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-29-2018, 09:56 PM
 
Location: Ohio
18,261 posts, read 13,415,373 times
Reputation: 14157
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzybint View Post
I watched a programme on tv this week about Colombian Indians who built houses of stone etc hundreds of years ago as did other cultures in South America but the native americans only seem to have some sort of mounds but no architecture at all as far as I can see, does anyone know why this happened..
I think you misunderstand the role demographics and physical geography played.

Part of that is due to Liberal propaganda.

"Native American" belies the fact that there were over 600 distinct tribes and bands (the same as clans) that spoke unique languages and had unique cultures, and where at differing levels of social, economic and political development.

Many of those tribes and bands were exterminated by tribal genocide long before European colonization began.

The tribes and bands numbered 100 to several hundred people for a band, and up to several thousand for a tribe, although a literal handful of tribes approached 10,000 people to as much as 20,000 people.

These tribes did not live in harmony. The settled tribes, those that live in permanent housing, were in constant conflict with semi-nomadic and nomadic tribes, and the semi-nomadic and nomadic tribes were constantly in conflict with one another.

Even the settled tribes engaged in conflict.

For example, the Wampanoag sought out the Puritans at Plymouth to enter into a treaty for mutual military aid. If the Narragansett or other local tribes attacked the Wampanoag, the Puritans would come to their defense, and if the Narragansett or others attacked the Puritans, the Wampanoag would come to the defense of the Puritans.

This constant conflict is not conducive to the building of massive structures.

Aside from the conflicts, the language barrier and cultural differences between tribes precluded them from working together, and because the tribes were so small, there was a man-power shortage, so massive structures could not be built.

Contrast that with tribal groups in Central and South America.

First, unlike the tribal groups in US and Canada which are largely Asian/Siberian in origin, DNA proves the tribal groups in Central and South America are of Polynesian, Melanesian and Australasian in origin.

They most likely arrived 10,000 years or more before Asian/Siberian groups began migrating into the Americas.

You need only to look at a physical terrain map to see that the Andes Mountains and both oceans posed formidable barriers.

A nomadic way of life wasn't possible to sustain for long periods of time. They very quickly progressed from a nomadic to semi-nomadic to settle way of life in a very short time.

From that point on, the tribes united through conquest or marriage, until you had large tribes with populations of several 100,000 to Millions -- effectively nation-States. No tribal group in North America ever came even remotely close to a population of 100,000.

When you have that kind of man-power, plus the means and ability to support such man-power, and you have relative peace, then you can embark on the building of megalithic monuments, like Machu Picchu, the various pyramids and others.

It would have taken several thousand more years before North American tribes caught up with Central and South America in terms of social, political and economic development.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-30-2018, 04:42 PM
 
Location: Maine
1,219 posts, read 830,574 times
Reputation: 927
Most off- most native americans do not believe one can own the land. Shelter was useful as needed depending on where they lived.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-30-2018, 04:45 PM
 
5,581 posts, read 5,776,617 times
Reputation: 2497
The Aztecs, Mayans, and Incas built many a great structures.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Today, 09:36 AM
 
9,409 posts, read 2,591,178 times
Reputation: 8629
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzybint View Post
I watched a programme on tv this week about Colombian Indians who built houses of stone etc hundreds of years ago as did other cultures in South America but the native americans only seem to have some sort of mounds but no architecture at all as far as I can see, does anyone know why this happened..
Visit Arizona.

Native Americans built everything in Mexico...they were Indians who moved south.

It may have been that the further south you moved, the more advantages you had back then. This is no different than Germans having been considered "barbarians" (and they were, to an extent) while Greeks and Italians built amazing roads, heated baths and aqueducts.

Certainly you know that Mexico City was made up of incredible structures....???

""It was the largest city anywhere in the Western Hemisphere before the 1400s," Cowgill says. "It had thousands of residential compounds and scores of pyramid-temples ... comparable to the largest pyramids of Egypt."

Pardon me if you don't mean "America" as being actual America (the whole of it) and are speaking only of the current USA. In that case, AZ. and NM. are likely to be the better examples (pueblos, etc.). Sure, many were carved from cliffs but that's a handy way to do it when the cliff is right there. It would be stupid to cut the rocks, haul them and build further away when everything (water, game, fields) was right there.

I'd say the energy required for survival is what kept more Northern Tribes from structures. If the game moved, so did the Natives.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Today, 09:45 AM
 
9,409 posts, read 2,591,178 times
Reputation: 8629
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
I think you misunderstand the role demographics and physical geography played.

Part of that is due to Liberal propaganda.

First, unlike the tribal groups in US and Canada which are largely Asian/Siberian in origin, DNA proves the tribal groups in Central and South America are of Polynesian, Melanesian and Australasian in origin.

They most likely arrived 10,000 years or more before Asian/Siberian groups began migrating into the Americas.
You talk about propaganda and DNA in the same post?

"Before the Spanish conquerers arrived in the 16th century, Mexico was inhabited by Native Americans who had carved out their own, often isolated, kingdoms. These genetic differences show up even today, the team at Stanford, the University of California, San Francisco and the Mexican National Institute of Genomic Medicine found."

I just watched an entire doc on the new ancient bones they found in Mexico. Native tribes from Alaska claimed these were THEIR forebearers and a long court case was involved due to the return of the bones to them. The DNA was taken to the world's foremost experts and guess what?

They disagree with you. The bones DID belong to the Alaskans.

So, should we believe you or the geneticists from Stanford and Europe and the published DNA tests? I'm going with the later. Here you go - watch it or read the transcript.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/video/...ace-of-america

"So, at last, the story is clear. Arriving in Beringia from different parts of Asia, about 15,000 years ago, groups of those very first Native Americans left and began the long trek south, exploring a land that no human had ever seen before.
Once south of the ice sheets, these same people developed a new way of making stone tools and weapons, the distinctive Clovis culture. Their descendants are today's Native Americans.
Naia's people were part of that great southward migration. When Naia lived, Jim believes her people were recent arrivals in Yucatan."

Please explain without using dog whistles....or propaganda.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Today, 10:20 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
73,513 posts, read 65,198,218 times
Reputation: 69769
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
I think you misunderstand the role demographics and physical geography played.

Part of that is due to Liberal propaganda.


You need only to look at a physical terrain map to see that the Andes Mountains and both oceans posed formidable barriers.

.
It has nothing to do with liberal propaganda, and a LOT to do with those Western TV shows Hollywood cranked out when the OP was growing up. Those only showed people living in tipis. When some of the action passed through the desert Southwest, the earth lodges and adobe houses the local tribes lived in weren't shown at all. The longhouses of the northeastern and northwestern tribes never made it onto film, except for the rare ethnographic film, which never reached Scotland, btw, where the OP is from.

The Andes being a migration barrier has nothing to do with who built permanent structures. The mountainous terrain certainly didn't stop people from eventually building monumental architecture there, hundreds, even a thousand years ago or more. And man-made islands have been found throughout the Amazon, upon which two-story homes had been the norm long before the arrival of Europeans. The Andes would have been a barrier only to people taking a coastal migration route, anyway. Others migrated directly into the interior of South America, from Central America, skirting the Andes. This still has nothing to do with the structures they eventually built, after getting settled in their new lands.

Last edited by Ruth4Truth; Today at 10:48 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Today, 10:30 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
73,513 posts, read 65,198,218 times
Reputation: 69769
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
Visit Arizona.

Native Americans built everything in Mexico...they were Indians who moved south.

It may have been that the further south you moved, the more advantages you had back then. This is no different than Germans having been considered "barbarians" (and they were, to an extent) while Greeks and Italians built amazing roads, heated baths and aqueducts.

Certainly you know that Mexico City was made up of incredible structures....???

""It was the largest city anywhere in the Western Hemisphere before the 1400s," Cowgill says. "It had thousands of residential compounds and scores of pyramid-temples ... comparable to the largest pyramids of Egypt."

Pardon me if you don't mean "America" as being actual America (the whole of it) and are speaking only of the current USA. In that case, AZ. and NM. are likely to be the better examples (pueblos, etc.). Sure, many were carved from cliffs but that's a handy way to do it when the cliff is right there. It would be stupid to cut the rocks, haul them and build further away when everything (water, game, fields) was right there.

I'd say the energy required for survival is what kept more Northern Tribes from structures. If the game moved, so did the Natives.
The Anasazi moved up into the cliffs and on top of the mesas after resources became scarce, due to a drying climate, archaeologists have found. Prior to that, they lived in huge cities on flat terrain, as in Chaco Canyon. Living nestled among rock formations, with a natural stone wall behind (and sometimes--above) the dwelling cluster, formed an impenetrable natural defense. Living on a mesa top, high above the valley floor, with only narrow stairways and hidden passages to provide access up and down, also provided protection from others looking to steal food. Eventually, these were abandoned as water ran out, and the people moved to the Rio Grande area. Some still live on the Hopi mesas, in thousand-year-old adobe homes.

Elsewhere in Arizona, New Mexico and northern Mexico, the Mogollon culture also built large cities that included apartment blocs of up to 600 rooms. There were some locations carved into cliffs, as well. The residents traded extensively with the Anasazi to the north, and the Aztecs and Maya to the south.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:K...ruins-pano.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mogollon_culture

Last edited by Ruth4Truth; Today at 10:47 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > History
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top