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Old 10-03-2013, 06:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Linda_d View Post
//end of thread

I would respectfully disagree on this. I do not think it was destiny due to ideology. Hitler made statements in the 1930s that he was not interested in invasion. However, 3 factors changed his mind. One, Stalin killed off his officers. Second, the Soviets performed poorly in Finland. Third, hubris. Germans felt after the relative ease of conquering Poland and the odds on favorite France, they could do no wrong.

Hitler and his generals poorly understood the military size, industrial capacity, central organization and will of the USSR when planning the invasion. Hitler would admit after the first year of the invasion, had he known these factors, he would not have invaded.
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Old 10-03-2013, 06:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by deh74 View Post
Lebenstraum was Hitlers reason for waging war. You also fail to address the fighting in North Africa and the Pacific, the British/Free French were doing very well in North Africa at this time and if Japan attacks any of the US "territories" (colonies, really) in the Pacific such as the Philippines or Hawaii then the US would get involved against Japan and probably Germany as well.

I also have several issues with your list of German allies;
Finland wasn't a German ally, the Finns and Germans just happened to both be fighting against the Russians so if the Russians never go to war like you say they do then Finland stays neutral like Sweden.
Spain was never allied to Germany. It would have also been nearly useless in a war since the country was devastated by the Civil War they had just gotten out of.
Spain did not actively participate in the war, but was certainly friends with Germany. They sent two divisions against the Russians in gratitude for Hitlers assistance in their Civil War. Im sure Spain would have found a nice role for itsself in Hitlers new order. Finland was attacked by the USSR before France collapsed. Finland therefore would have remained allied to Germany as protection against further Soviet threat much more closely than a normal nuetrals Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, etc. But your right, they would not have declared war on the British.

I don't think after the collapse of Greece and Yugoslavia, the British could have mounted much of an offensive from Africa. I can see how Hitler might have poured resources into helping Mussolini defend Libya, but no where near the amount of troops invested in previous campaigns. If he was smart!
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Old 10-04-2013, 10:06 AM
 
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jobseeker2013, you are missing one of the primary reasons that Hitler wanted to go to war in the East...resources. "Lebensraum" wasn't just about "living space" it was about resource security for Germany. Even with all of the conquests up to 1940, Germany was still reliant on external sources for many raw materials including grain, oil, tungsten and aluminum. The Soviet Union was Germany's primary supplier for these resources after the war broke out and other avenues were closed off.

During WW1 Germany had been virtually strangled to death and reduced to near starvation. Hitler's grand stategic plan for the Reich included becoming "resource secure" so that Germany could not be cut-off from the outside. As it was in 1940, the Russians could have simply stopped shipping grain, oil, etc. and Germany would almost immediately face acute shortages that would grind their war machine to a halt and put their people on the brink of starvation. The bread basket of the Ukraine and the rich resources of the Caucasus would provide Germany with the resource security they needed to pursue whatever policy they wished.

Additionally, the German economy was on the verge of collapse in 1939. Hitler had orchestrated a scheme in order to fund and hide his military buildup. They had created a dummy corporation (MEFO) that would issue bonds (Mefo bills) that were in turn redeemable for Reichsmarks after a set period. This allowed Hitler to spend over $12 billion rearming Germany while keeping the entire cost off of the balance sheets of the country. In effect German national debt was nearly double what was claimed. As these bills became due for payment, it would have crushed the value of the Reichsmark, caused inflation and plunged Germany back into a depression.

The bills started coming due in 1939 and Germany's choices were to shift to an export based economy in order to generate foreign reserves and to adopt an austerity budget; or, they could go to war and sieze assets to cover the expenses. Germany chose war and they were nowhere near being out of the financial trouble zone at the end of 1940, especially with no ability to shift their economy and generate trade.

So, the reasons for the invasion of the East had roots in ideology, but were largely economic and tied to the necessity of future resource security.
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
jobseeker2013, you are missing one of the primary reasons that Hitler wanted to go to war in the East...resources. "Lebensraum" wasn't just about "living space" it was about resource security for Germany. Even with all of the conquests up to 1940, Germany was still reliant on external sources for many raw materials including grain, oil, tungsten and aluminum. The Soviet Union was Germany's primary supplier for these resources after the war broke out and other avenues were closed off.

During WW1 Germany had been virtually strangled to death and reduced to near starvation. Hitler's grand stategic plan for the Reich included becoming "resource secure" so that Germany could not be cut-off from the outside. As it was in 1940, the Russians could have simply stopped shipping grain, oil, etc. and Germany would almost immediately face acute shortages that would grind their war machine to a halt and put their people on the brink of starvation. The bread basket of the Ukraine and the rich resources of the Caucasus would provide Germany with the resource security they needed to pursue whatever policy they wished.

Additionally, the German economy was on the verge of collapse in 1939. Hitler had orchestrated a scheme in order to fund and hide his military buildup. They had created a dummy corporation (MEFO) that would issue bonds (Mefo bills) that were in turn redeemable for Reichsmarks after a set period. This allowed Hitler to spend over $12 billion rearming Germany while keeping the entire cost off of the balance sheets of the country. In effect German national debt was nearly double what was claimed. As these bills became due for payment, it would have crushed the value of the Reichsmark, caused inflation and plunged Germany back into a depression.

The bills started coming due in 1939 and Germany's choices were to shift to an export based economy in order to generate foreign reserves and to adopt an austerity budget; or, they could go to war and sieze assets to cover the expenses. Germany chose war and they were nowhere near being out of the financial trouble zone at the end of 1940, especially with no ability to shift their economy and generate trade.

So, the reasons for the invasion of the East had roots in ideology, but were largely economic and tied to the necessity of future resource security.
I dont dispute the economic and teritorial motives. however hitler like I have said did not understand who he was invading to achieve them. im arguing lebensraum was pie in the sky. the germans essentially reached their potential in 1940 and could not go any higher. they needed a leader who realized this. Their economic dependence on other countries still put them in a better position for future years than invading more superior countries.
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jobseeker2013 View Post
I dont dispute the economic and teritorial motives. however hitler like I have said did not understand who he was invading to achieve them. im arguing lebensraum was pie in the sky. the germans essentially reached their potential in 1940 and could not go any higher. they needed a leader who realized this.
I'm arguing that once the course was set to re-armament and war, there was no looking back. Did Hitler underestimate the Soviet Union? Absolutely. Did that mean that he could have just decided to end the war after France fell? No. In order for there to have been a different outcome, Hitler would have to have chosen to not engage in re-armament and hurl his country toward a situation where they had no choice but to go all-in. On top of that in a hypothetical where Hitler does stop, any peace was bound to be short-lived as Hitler and Stalin simply did not trust each other and knew that war was a near inevitability. As long as Germany was reliant on Russian raw materials, it would never be secure.
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Old 10-04-2013, 04:50 PM
 
Location: Nesconset, NY
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Originally Posted by jobseeker2013 View Post
...All Hitler had to do was to forget about Lebensraum and keep the USSR neutral and fortify his positions in Europe against future attack....
"Lebensraum" was the whole point of the war.
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Old 10-04-2013, 07:55 PM
 
Location: State Fire and Ice
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Originally Posted by jobseeker2013 View Post
The French were crushed similarly to 1871. There was no need for Hitler to invade Great Britain. He did not have the capacity anyway. The British could not invade mainland Europe on their own. The USA would continue to be neutral. All Hitler had to do was to forget about Lebensraum and keep the USSR neutral and fortify his positions in Europe against future attack. Hitler and his Italian, Romanian, Hungarian, Finnish,Croatian, Spanish and Bulgarian allies could have had a long domination of Europe. I'm surprised historians have not talked more about this.
At the expense of the war it said loudly,but the beginning of the war ,Yes he managed to easily and very simply and quickly. .many countries not even resisted. Yes and occupied Europe was well enough to worry much,if not to speak about the Jews.
This is a humiliating defeat for Europe.Of course they will not be proud of and talking on each corner of this.
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Old 10-06-2013, 04:02 AM
 
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A) Hitler despised Bolshevism/Jews. Thus Russia was always Target #1. If Poland takes Hitlers offer and joins him, they along with a handful of other European countries (even Japan) defeat and occupy Russia.

In this scenario: England/France never join the war and I highly doubt anyone comes to the rescue of Russia. This turns Central/Eastern Europe into an Empire

B) Why do historians not speak of it? One reason is to hide how badly inept the Western nations were in battle. Compared to Russia & Poland who faced 80% loses but still continued fighting, the Western allies stopped and retreated as soon as they faced 30% causalities. How did Poland (attacked by 4 nations) last nearly as long as France yet had a fraction of the man power and supplies as France/England?

By preaching the narrative that Hitler wanted to control the globe, the Western nations are also able to deflect focus from why they didn't honor their treaty with Poland and attack Germany, which by most historian accounts would have stopped the War that year. I have also read that without resources supplied to Germany by Russia, the Nazis would have ran out of fuel within 60 days. Ponder that for a second. There is endless evidence why Hitler never planned to take over Europe but once Poland declined his offer & Russia defeated his surprise attack, it was too late.

OP is correct. Hitler should have never demanded Gdansk
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Old 10-08-2013, 09:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by IceTeaDrinker2013 View Post
A) Hitler despised Bolshevism/Jews. Thus Russia was always Target #1. If Poland takes Hitlers offer and joins him, they along with a handful of other European countries (even Japan) defeat and occupy Russia.
Problem 1: Poland would have never accepted Hitlers "offer" because it was not an offer to join the Axis, but to basically turn Poland into an occupied satellite state of Germany. The only choice Poland was given was to either turn their country over without resistance, or try and fight. You can't pretend like the Poles had a workable solution to retain their country and side with Hitler, they didn't.

Problem 2: Japan would not have joined the war. Japan had already been mauled by the Soviets previously and despite popular myth, the Soviets never stripped the Far Eastern defenses down to nothing. Further what was Japan to gain but vast tracts of Siberia? Theorizing that Japan joins in against Russia would be to assume that Japan would act counter to their own interests.

Quote:
B) Why do historians not speak of it? One reason is to hide how badly inept the Western nations were in battle. Compared to Russia & Poland who faced 80% loses but still continued fighting, the Western allies stopped and retreated as soon as they faced 30% causalities. How did Poland (attacked by 4 nations) last nearly as long as France yet had a fraction of the man power and supplies as France/England?
I'm not sure what historians are not speaking of. Though, I am sure it has little to do with "western ineptitude".

Yes, the western allies fell rapidly. France's position deteriorated quickly and the French simply did not have the national stamina to fight another war. France chose surrender instead of continuing to fight until the bitter end. As for Britain, they did not have much of an army and when France fell and the BEF was evacuated they left most of their equipment behind. They had to rebuild their army and had no base on the continent from which to continue fighting Germany. I don't think it is fair to question British resolve in WW2.

As for why Poland lasted just as long, they simply had the will to continue fighting until every square inch of Poland had been taken and their military suppressed. The Russians knew they were fighting for their existence.

Quote:
By preaching the narrative that Hitler wanted to control the globe, the Western nations are also able to deflect focus from why they didn't honor their treaty with Poland and attack Germany, which by most historian accounts would have stopped the War that year. I have also read that without resources supplied to Germany by Russia, the Nazis would have ran out of fuel within 60 days. Ponder that for a second. There is endless evidence why Hitler never planned to take over Europe but once Poland declined his offer & Russia defeated his surprise attack, it was too late.
Who is preaching that Hitler wanted to control the globe? Hitler had no desire to physically conquer the entire world, but it is beyond a doubt that had he succeeded in conquering all of Europe and holding it, that the resulting superpower would have dominated global affairs.

As for honoring the treaty, both Britain and France declared war as soon as Germany invaded. It takes time to mobilize troops. France launched the Saar Offensive, but simply lacked the ability to fully mobilize the needed forces and achieve the objectives. Had France acted more forcefully, they could have brought the war closer to home for Germany, but there was a real fear that Germany would simply destroy the French Army in Germany leaving France undefended. The allies chose to consolidate their forces and wait for the German offensive.

Yes, Germany received raw material support from Russia. Once the war started Russia was the only source of many of things Germany needed including oil, grain and certain metals. This further reinforced to Hitler the necessity of taking Russia so that Germany could achieve resource independence.

As for your last statement, that is simply not true. There is endless evidence that taking over Europe, or at least absolutely dominating it, was exactly Hitler's goal. Hitler would have very much preferred that Poland simply dissolve itself and join the Reich. From there Hitler would have launched his war against the Soviets. Assuming he won, he would take the land he wanted. Germany would then be resource secure and an absolute juggernaut in Europe. Fringe nations that were not aligned (Balkans, Greece, Turkey) would simply submit and join the Axis with pro-Nazi governments. France and Britain would be in a panic, but Germany would be too powerful for them to defeat. France and Britain would then simply capitulate to Hitler's demands and fall into his sphere. Hitler may not have desired to conquer Europe, but he certainly had plans to dominate it.

Quote:
OP is correct. Hitler should have never demanded Gdansk
The OP was wrong and the reasons why have been detailed already. As for not demanding Gdansk...it was never about Gdansk. Gdansk was just a sideshow. Hitler wanted Poland, all of it.
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Old 10-08-2013, 12:08 PM
 
31,387 posts, read 36,921,854 times
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Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
A) Hitler's demand for Poland was essentially a ceding of Polish national sovereignty to Germany. It wasn't about corridors and free cities, it was about Poland being absorbed into the Reich. You can't pretend it was an "oh, please be my ally" situation he ruined with demanding Danzig.
One key issue seems to have been lost in this "Poland should have joined with Hitler" argument, namely that Poles, in Hitler's eyes, were no more worthy of existence than Jews, Roma, or any other non-Aryan people. 1.5 million NON-JEWISH Poles were murdered during the Nazi occupation and 1.5 million were removed from Poland to work in Nazi slave labor camps. So any argument that Poland could have had some permanent peace with Hitler is risible at best or just totally delusional.

In August of 1939 Hitler stated:
"I have issued the command — and I'll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad — that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head formations in readiness — for the present only in the East — with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space (Lebensraum) which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?"
Adolf Hitler -- Statement on the Armenian Genocide
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