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I can never escape the sense that for some posters, the whole idea of what they say is to demonize socialism from a modern political standpoint, rather than a strict clinical approach where one isn't here to apply it as a demon word, just to assess what is and what is not definable as socialism.
Trying to distance the GOP from the National Socialists can be a real problem, especially where I live. The fact that the Nazis jailed, Socialists, Gays, Jehovahs Witnesses, Union Leaders, along with Jews says a lot
Trying to distance the GOP from the National Socialists can be a real problem, especially where I live. The fact that the Nazis jailed, Socialists, Gays, Jehovahs Witnesses, Union Leaders, along with Jews says a lot
This is more "politics and controversies", but FWIW, the modern GOP archetype along the Bush Jr. line is much closer to Mussolini style Corporative Fascism, then it is to Hitlers National Socialism.
This is more "politics and controversies", but FWIW, the modern GOP archetype along the Bush Jr. line is much closer to Mussolini style Corporative Fascism, then it is to Hitlers National Socialism.
EXCUUUUUUUSE ME, wasn't it Prescott BUSH, grandad of W, who arrainged the alliance betweem Krupp-Thyssen and Hitler that gavee him enough seats in the Reichstag to become Chancellor?
EXCUUUUUUUSE ME, wasn't it Prescott BUSH, grandad of W, who arrainged the alliance betweem Krupp-Thyssen and Hitler that gavee him enough seats in the Reichstag to become Chancellor?
I was of course referring to their place on the political and economic spectrums. The one I am referencing is posted a couple pages back. Yes, W. would be seen as closer to Mussolini then he was to Hitler.
As for old Prescott, that could warrant it's own thread. He was a partner in Brown Brothers Harriman which managed money for UBC, which was of course owned by the Thyssen family. The bank was shut down in 1942 under the Trading With the Enemy Act when it was determined that it held gold on behalf of prominent Nazi's. The Anti-Defamation League and most historians agree that Bush's involvement was purely commercial and that he was not a Nazi sympathizer.
In fact, the allegations are rather loose as to Prescott's involvement. Thyssen, while initially supporting Hitler had a major falling out with the Nazi party in 1938 following the Krystalnacht pogrom. Thyssen fled to Switzerland and was stripped of all his assets in Germany by Hitler. Thyssen later penned a work titled "I Paid Hitler" in which he confessed his role in financing the Nazi's and then denounced Hitler. Thyssen was arrested in Vichy France and spent the war as a prisoner of the Nazi's.
A conspiracy is born. Prescott Bush worked for Harriman which managed UBC which was owned by Thyssen. Thyssen financed Hitler as admitted in his book and UBC held assets for Nazi's....hence Prescott Bush financed Hitler.
For Prescott's part he owned 1 of 4,000 shares in UBC. He and the other principals at Harriman served a directors role at UBC on behalf of their client, Thyssen. They did assist in moving money and other assets for Thyssen, who self-admittedly supported the Nazi's and Hitler. Does that mean that Prescott was a Nazi sympathizer and financier? I personally think the "evidence" is rather weak.
If he is to be considered a Nazi sympathizer and financier, then he certainly had great company. Virtually every major American business had dealings and subsidiaries in Germany pre-war under both the Weimar Republic and Nazi's. From General Motors and Ford to Standard Oil and US Steel. Even the US government had heavy involvement in investing money in Germany to try and keep their economy afloat. Germany was a major industrialized nation, in the midst of a major economic slump, it was ripe for investment.
The US government and that of Britain as well as every other major corporation in both countries played a role in investing in Germany during the pre-war period. In essence the US government probably paid the greatest role sending gold, dollars and treasuries to the Germans to support their economy and allow them to meet their reparations payments. In essence, the US and to a lesser extent Britain, financed the German re-armament.
As for Prescott, he retained his share in UBC after the bank was re-opened following the war. When the bank was liquidated/sold in 1951 he reportedly made $1.5 million off his single share of stock. Any other claims about benefits he reaped post-WW2 from other investments he held in German industrial companies have been totally debunked.
I was of course referring to their place on the political and economic spectrums. The one I am referencing is posted a couple pages back. Yes, W. would be seen as closer to Mussolini then he was to Hitler.
As for old Prescott, that could warrant it's own thread. He was a partner in Brown Brothers Harriman which managed money for UBC, which was of course owned by the Thyssen family. The bank was shut down in 1942 under the Trading With the Enemy Act when it was determined that it held gold on behalf of prominent Nazi's. The Anti-Defamation League and most historians agree that Bush's involvement was purely commercial and that he was not a Nazi sympathizer.
In fact, the allegations are rather loose as to Prescott's involvement. Thyssen, while initially supporting Hitler had a major falling out with the Nazi party in 1938 following the Krystalnacht pogrom. Thyssen fled to Switzerland and was stripped of all his assets in Germany by Hitler. Thyssen later penned a work titled "I Paid Hitler" in which he confessed his role in financing the Nazi's and then denounced Hitler. Thyssen was arrested in Vichy France and spent the war as a prisoner of the Nazi's.
A conspiracy is born. Prescott Bush worked for Harriman which managed UBC which was owned by Thyssen. Thyssen financed Hitler as admitted in his book and UBC held assets for Nazi's....hence Prescott Bush financed Hitler.
For Prescott's part he owned 1 of 4,000 shares in UBC. He and the other principals at Harriman served a directors role at UBC on behalf of their client, Thyssen. They did assist in moving money and other assets for Thyssen, who self-admittedly supported the Nazi's and Hitler. Does that mean that Prescott was a Nazi sympathizer and financier? I personally think the "evidence" is rather weak.
If he is to be considered a Nazi sympathizer and financier, then he certainly had great company. Virtually every major American business had dealings and subsidiaries in Germany pre-war under both the Weimar Republic and Nazi's. From General Motors and Ford to Standard Oil and US Steel. Even the US government had heavy involvement in investing money in Germany to try and keep their economy afloat. Germany was a major industrialized nation, in the midst of a major economic slump, it was ripe for investment.
The US government and that of Britain as well as every other major corporation in both countries played a role in investing in Germany during the pre-war period. In essence the US government probably paid the greatest role sending gold, dollars and treasuries to the Germans to support their economy and allow them to meet their reparations payments. In essence, the US and to a lesser extent Britain, financed the German re-armament.
As for Prescott, he retained his share in UBC after the bank was re-opened following the war. When the bank was liquidated/sold in 1951 he reportedly made $1.5 million off his single share of stock. Any other claims about benefits he reaped post-WW2 from other investments he held in German industrial companies have been totally debunked.
All aside from the point. The agreement between Krupp Thyssen was to purge the Socialists from the Nazi Party, dismantle the SA, in return for several other right wing parties controlled by the industrialists and the Army throwing their support behind Hitler. Therefore the Nazis were not Socialists and those Socialists who were members of the Nazi Party met their deaths at the hands of the Nazis.
All aside from the point. The agreement between Krupp Thyssen was to purge the Socialists from the Nazi Party, dismantle the SA, in return for several other right wing parties controlled by the industrialists and the Army throwing their support behind Hitler. Therefore the Nazis were not Socialists and those Socialists who were members of the Nazi Party met their deaths at the hands of the Nazis.
Yet again, we circle back into the issue of definition. Perhaps we could draw a distinction between "socialist" meaning a general range of economic systems involving degrees of state control and "Socialist" meaning the "Socialist" parties that advocated the most extreme form of "socialism". So, the Nazi's weren't "Socialists", but they definitely were "socialists".
NJGOAT - right on! Your posts display a comprehensive understanding of socialist economic systems and your explanations are accessible, even if ignored by those who reflexively defend Socialism (or socialism).
Personally, I prefer capitalism but find it instructive to observe the internecine squabbles between Nazis (right wing socialists) and Communists (left wing socialists).
Yet again, we circle back into the issue of definition. Perhaps we could draw a distinction between "socialist" meaning a general range of economic systems involving degrees of state control and "Socialist" meaning the "Socialist" parties that advocated the most extreme form of "socialism". So, the Nazi's weren't "Socialists", but they definitely were "socialists".
They were Corporate Fascists, it was Krupp, Thyssen and Farben who got them the votes to come to power. They jailed Socialists. They fit the very definition of Fascism. You are in denial
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