Were the Nazis Socialists?(Moved Posts) (WWII, 60s, Spain, president)

[ParkTwain]

Social regimentation (a set of techniques directed by state institutions that more or less severely limits practical freedoms and some political rights of citizens) in and of itself is not socialism, but in the extreme those techniques are typically part of a 'totalitarian' political system. Fascism is by definition right-wing totalitarism, which means state-dominated social regimentation, including some regimentation of the economic sphere. Yet private enterprise was allowed under fascism in Germany and Italy.

The totalitarianism found in the Soviet Union proceeded from a socialist/communist political model of political institutions. There was both social regimentation and economic regimentation. There was practically zero private enterprise. The Soviet Union's economic institutions, including the banking system, implemented a centralized 'command' economy, rather than a market economy. Concomitantly, political freedoms for individuals were fewer than in Western democracies (all of which are more or less socialist).

A fully 'socialist' state would do away with private ownership of economic entities, including of banks. That did not happen under the Nazis. The 'socialist' states found today in Europe are quasi-socialist in that they allow private ownership of some (even many) economic and financial entities. There are no 'true socialist' states in the world today, except perhaps Cuba which adheres ostensibly to Marxism-Leninism.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by skytrekker

It started preemptive wars, scapegoated its citizens and blamed 'inferior races' for the Country's problems, was anti liberal, anti science, anti intellectual, extremely nationalistic, and certainly was a model for 20th century right wing totalitarianism.

In my opinion America is almost a fascist country.
It started pre-emptive wars...does Iraq count? If so check.
Scapegoated its citizens and blamed 'inferior races'...accusing blacks and Latino's for crimes (one of the major Country's problems) and gays for being immoral, thus 'racial' profiling. Check
Anti-science...creationism and YET. Check
Extremely nationalistic....define extreme, so I include American patriotism. Check

Once America becomes anti intellectual (and many American Christians consider atheists intellectuals) and anti liberal (imo the Patriot act is a true danger to freedom and free thinking) it is a fascist country.
Then again I've always been quick in seeing the negative side of things. But this is how I evaluate danger.
I'd rather be safe than sorry.

[Flieger]

Originally Posted by skytrekker

Good questions Reactionary

however in Political Theory the Nazi's where firm believers in private capital and ownership, and hated the Communists for not allowing it.

Nazi Germany truly represented fascism to its worse extent. I do not agree with you that the Nazi's where 'further left' then the current politics in this country-

Remember the far right has always believed in a Social Darwinist' type of belief, that the strong survive and the weak shall parish. The Nazi's thought that all inferior 'races' should be exported or exterminated.

Economically, Nazi Germany was a corporate state- that allowed the various German companies I alluded to above, huge tax cuts-

To say that current day America is further to the right, is not really accurate. Despite nearly 40 years since the Conservative revolution took place, we have not become what Germany was in 1939 by a long shot- Nazi Germany was much further to the right. It started preemptive wars, scapegoated its citizens and blamed 'inferior races' for the Country's problems, was anti liberal, anti science, anti intellectual, extremely nationalistic, and certainly was a model for 20th century right wing totalitarianism.

In many ways present day USA-resembles right wing fascism- as Americans we can stem this dangerous slide to the netherworld of extremism.

I wouldn't say "firm believers", the question of private ownership was never their biggest concerns. It was just settled that they, unlike the Communists, would not forbid private ownership, as it is a basic human right, and if I remember correctly, the conditions were that cartels, monopolies and other schemes which were harmful to the public interest would not be tolerated.

What does "starting preemptive wars" have to do with the political spectrum? U.S. has started preemptive wars, usually under the guise of secrecy and in the name of national security, and so has other former states such as USSR. And do you consider Nationalism to be "far-right"?

Furthermore, while you're right on some points, I wouldn't consider Hitler's Germany eg. "anti-science". The Germans progressed incredibly during the years, and one of their most famous accomplishments is the sky-rocket launcher they built near the end of the war, and if I remember correctly, one of the developers on that project would later be invited/move to U.S. and work for NASA.

Finally, there was a "Green Wing" of the NSDAP, which you can read about in the link below (there are other articles too, just Google it):

Ecofascism / Fascist Ideology: The Green Wing of the Nazi Party and its Historical Antecedents by Peter Staudenmaier

[Mark S.]

Originally Posted by Flieger

And do you consider Nationalism to be "far-right"?

Intense nationalism is a bad thing, no matter which side of the political spectrum it comes from.

But don't confuse nationalism with patriotism.

“Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.” -Charles De Gaulle, French general and president

[LordBalfor]

Originally Posted by Mark S.

Intense nationalism is a bad thing, no matter which side of the political spectrum it comes from.

But don't confuse nationalism with patriotism.

“Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.” -Charles De Gaulle, French general and president

Yup.

Have to say though that there seem to be a WHOLE lot of Americans today who I'd be pretty tempted to label as Nationalists rather than Patriots (just take a peek over at the immigration board - lots of hate mongering over there), not to mention the whole "if you are not with us on the GWT then you're against us" attitude. After all, look at all the French bashing that's been going on over the last few years. "Freedom Fries?????" Come on, how silly is that?

Ken

[Mark S.]

Originally Posted by LordBalfor

Have to say though that there seem to be a WHOLE lot of Americans today who I'd be pretty tempted to label as Nationalists rather than Patriots (just take a peek over at the immigration board - lots of hate mongering over there), not to mention the whole "if you are not with us on the GWT then you're against us" attitude.

Yep. Very much agreed.

“To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but it is morally treasonable to the American public.” (Teddy Roosevelt)

Originally Posted by LordBalfor

After all, look at all the French bashing that's been going on over the last few years. "Freedom Fries?????" Come on, how silly is that?

Very. And yes, that is a good example of nationalism being both silly and igorant, since French Fries are about as French as tacos.

[skytrekker]

The Nazi's where clever enough to use 'science' to their own advantage- just as GWB did in 'Shock and awe'--- what the Nazi's did and the rest of the far right does is use 'myth' as a means to subordinate a mass number people in order to control them.

The far right is very clever in using the available science to destroy other nations- as Germany did so well in World War II- but they basically subjugate their own citizens, into an ultra nationalistic fever based on lies, false racial and ethnic theories and a variety of flag waving, bands playing marches that separates 'non believers' from those who 'believe'.

[Flieger]

Originally Posted by Mark S.

Intense nationalism is a bad thing, no matter which side of the political spectrum it comes from.

But don't confuse nationalism with patriotism.

“Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.” -Charles De Gaulle, French general and president

What do you mean by "intense Nationalism"? And as far as I'm concerned, if you consider yourself a Nationalist, you don't by definition hate other peoples or "evaluate" them in any way. Many people from a variety of different nations have explained this to me.

[Mark S.]

Originally Posted by Flieger

What do you mean by "intense Nationalism"?

Just what I posted: "...when hate for people other than your own comes first."

Nationalism has more negative connotations than patriotism. Patriotism is love and devotion to your country. Nationalism is dislike for anything that isn't your country. Big difference. One is admirable, the other despicable.

[theroc5156]

Originally Posted by Tricky D

Originally Posted by skytrekker In my opinion America is almost a fascist country.
It started pre-emptive wars...does Iraq count? If so check.
Scapegoated its citizens and blamed 'inferior races'...accusing blacks and Latino's for crimes (one of the major Country's problems) and gays for being immoral, thus 'racial' profiling. Check
Anti-science...creationism and YET. Check
Extremely nationalistic....define extreme, so I include American patriotism. Check

Once America becomes anti intellectual (and many American Christians consider atheists intellectuals) and anti liberal (imo the Patriot act is a true danger to freedom and free thinking) it is a fascist country.
Then again I've always been quick in seeing the negative side of things. But this is how I evaluate danger.
I'd rather be safe than sorry.

The danger is your misguided thinking and how you seem to fit it in a nice, neat package like you do in your post. Your "keys to fascism" above pretty much can go for any other country for that matter.