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Old 11-19-2007, 03:03 PM
 
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Never forget - the Nazis were socialists.
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Old 11-19-2007, 03:22 PM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
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Originally Posted by Reactionary View Post
Never forget - the Nazis were socialists.
Well, technically, though they called themselves National Socialists, they were actually on the opposite end of the political spectrum from Socialists - Right-wingers (ultra conservatives if you will).

However, the fact remains that the political spectrum is simply a means of trying to organize political beliefs into some sort of understandable framework. Personally it seems to me that the political spectrum is better viewed as a ring - with the extreme right and extreme left coming together once you go far enough to either side. - or an alternative view would be to picture it as a bar with the anarchists on one end and the totalitarians (including NAZI's and Communists) together on the other end.

Ken
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Old 11-19-2007, 03:35 PM
 
Location: Vienna, Austria
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Originally Posted by Reactionary View Post
Never forget - the Nazis were socialists.
I'm sorry, but that's simply wrong, just because they called themselves National Socialists doesn't mean that they were socialist. Socialism is the idea of a classless society, Nazis society was very class-oriented with warrior and leader as the highest class, and jews and workers as the lowest class, socialism dreams of a coiety without a leader, national socialism had Hitler, probably the msot glorified leading figure in history. Socialism dreams about a society where there are no nationa states anymore, and people live together without any remark on their origin or "race", while the Nazis were the most nationalist / patriotic / race fanatic people ever. Plus the Nazi system was financed by big industrialists, factory owners and bankers, while they would probably be the greatest enemies of socialists. Nazis embraced ocialist symbols and evn language to attrt working cass vote in Germay, but their idea of ehancig german worker's living standards was to get rid of jews to lower unemployment, socialism dreams of a society where only those who want to have to work and moneyis unneccessary.

Those are the differences in theory, of course if you compare Stalin's Russia and Hitler's Germany you wouldn't find much difference, but in theory socialism and national socialism are complete opposites.

Sorry if I made a lot of mistakes, I can't concentrate when people say things without thinking about them without giving arguments just to provoke.
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Old 11-19-2007, 03:42 PM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
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Originally Posted by Luke81 View Post
I'm sorry, but that's simply wrong, just because they called themselves National Socialists doesn't mean that they were socialist. Socialism is the idea of a classless society, Nazis society was very class-oriented with warrior and leader as the highest class, and jews and workers as the lowest class, socialism dreams of a coiety without a leader, national socialism had Hitler, probably the msot glorified leading figure in history. Socialism dreams about a society where there are no nationa states anymore, and people live together without any remark on their origin or "race", while the Nazis were the most nationalist / patriotic / race fanatic people ever. Plus the Nazi system was financed by big industrialists, factory owners and bankers, while they would probably be the greatest enemies of socialists. Nazis embraced ocialist symbols and evn language to attrt working cass vote in Germay, but their idea of ehancig german worker's living standards was to get rid of jews to lower unemployment, socialism dreams of a society where only those who want to have to work and moneyis unneccessary.

Those are the differences in theory, of course if you compare Stalin's Russia and Hitler's Germany you wouldn't find much difference, but in theory socialism and national socialism are complete opposites.

Sorry if I made a lot of mistakes, I can't concentrate when people say things without thinking about them without giving arguments just to provoke.
No, your comments were exactly right - including the statement about Stalin's Russia and Hitler's Germany being much the same.

Good post.

Ken
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Old 11-19-2007, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Patriot Nation!
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Don't forget many communists, socialists, Marxists, and many left-leaning dissenters also made their way to labor and prision camps. The Nazi party and Socialists, (in the Marx/Engles tradition) are not the same thing.

Moderator cut: orphaned

Last edited by Alpha8207; 11-21-2007 at 01:08 PM.. Reason: smiley causing the problems has been removed
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Old 11-19-2007, 04:06 PM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
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Originally Posted by 2KidsforMe View Post
Don't forget many communists, socialists, and those with left-leaning dissenters also made their way to labor and prision camps, including some Catholic relatives of mine.
As Gypsies and pretty much anyone of Slavik blood was at risk - as well as homosexuals (even though the early NAZI leadership contained a few such) and anyone who had the misfortune to be born with any sort of physical "imperfection".

Curiously enough Hitler decreed the Japanese to be "Honorary Arians" (as if the Japanese gave a hoot about that "honor"). And so it seems, racial purity is a matter of convenience. When it suited them, the NAZI's could turn a blind eye to the so-called "inferiority" of other races - and then when the time was right - suddenly turn on them. Such people have no scruples - and never will.

Ken
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Old 11-19-2007, 04:39 PM
 
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LordBalfour - "they were actually on the opposite end of the political spectrum from Socialists - Right-wingers"

They are only 'right-wingers' if you're further left (i.e., Communist). They're not opposites - they just opposed each other (i.e., like Stalinists killed Trotsky). I've got no problem lumping all these socialists into one murderous group: Hitler, Stalin, Mao. If you want to debate the finer points of the differences in their application of socialism, fine, but the fact remains that they were... socialists...

I didn't introduce this as a left / right spectrum discussion, but as a totalitarian vs democracy comparison. It's just easier to kill masses of your own people when the state is all-powerful, like under socialism 'as practiced' (nod to Luke)...

Luke81 - good post, but... "Those are the differences in theory, of course if you compare Stalin's Russia and Hitler's Germany you wouldn't find much difference, but in theory socialism and national socialism are complete opposites."

Quote:
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.
- Yogi Berra
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Old 11-19-2007, 08:39 PM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
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Originally Posted by Reactionary View Post
LordBalfour - "they were actually on the opposite end of the political spectrum from Socialists - Right-wingers"

They are only 'right-wingers' if you're further left (i.e., Communist). They're not opposites - they just opposed each other (i.e., like Stalinists killed Trotsky). I've got no problem lumping all these socialists into one murderous group: Hitler, Stalin, Mao. If you want to debate the finer points of the differences in their application of socialism, fine, but the fact remains that they were... socialists...
WRONG!

The NAZI's were RIGHT wing and the Communists LEFT wing on the classiic political spectrum chart (see the link to the chart). That's basic high-school political science. The word "Socialist" does not mean left-wing in the context of the NAZI party and has NO political relationship to the term Socialist as Americans think of it. They were Fascists - which is text-book right-wing, right up there beside Mussolini.

Look at the classic European political spectrum chart:

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/3/36/European-political-spectrum.png (broken link)

From Wikipedia:

"Nazism refers primarily to the ideology and practices of the Nazi Party under Adolf Hitler; and the policies adopted by the government of Nazi Germany from 1933 to 1945, a period also known as the Third Reich.[1][2][3][4] The official name of the Nazi party was the National Socialist German Workers' Party, (German: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei or NSDAP); and the term Nazism is a contraction from the German: Nationalsozialismus, (National Socialism). Nazism was the main form of National Socialism that emerged after World War I, and is generally considered a form of fascism."

The NAZI's and the Communists were arch-enemies - even though in truth they were very much alike. We can argue symantics all you want regarding the word "Socialist" but the classic political spectrum is VERY clear in that they are on opposite sides. Now in truth there are efforts to redefine the political sprectrum (such as I described) but the classic NAZI on the right/Communists on the left is the standard interpretation. I didn't get my bachelor's degree in History (with special emphasis on WW II) and not pick up that basic fact. At one time I fully intended to teach the subject.

Ken
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Old 11-19-2007, 08:52 PM
 
Location: Patriot Nation!
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This history major has to agree with LordBalfor on the Socialist issue. But then agian, I hate that the term "Socialism" gets lumped into the same category as the murderous Stalin.
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Old 11-19-2007, 08:56 PM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
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PS - Don't get distracted by the word "Socialist". If the Communist party of Russia were to change their name to "The Freedom Party" does that suddenly make them liberatians and champions of individual freedom? The word "Socialist" in the NAZI party name is just a word and does not mean that they are in way associated with the classic meaning of "Socialism" any more than the "Freedom" would mean the Communist party has suddenly embraced freedom. It was just marketing. Socialism is anti-Capitalism and anti-private property. The NAZI's were neither - thus they were not Socialists (at least not in the terms Americans think of as Socialist)

You are correct in lumping the NAZI's and the Communists together as Totalitarians, but not as Socialists. Both were very bad and there are many, many similarities between them - but there are also some significant differences. Mainly my original post was simply to point out the fact that the NAZI's were not really Socialists as Americans think of the term.

Ken

Last edited by LordBalfor; 11-19-2007 at 09:45 PM..
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