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Location: In a Galaxy far, far away called Germany
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Very interesting. However, I think it is a fallacy to look for the "first" high civilization and then declare it the cradle of civilization (like we did with Mesopotamia). Civilizations can appear thousands of miles away from each other without any interaction or influence between them. I think it is safe to say that civilizations occurred wherever mankind concentrated themselves. The Danubian civilization does back this kind of thinking more so than the idea that one civilization gave birth to all others.
Very interesting. However, I think it is a fallacy to look for the "first" high civilization and then declare it the cradle of civilization (like we did with Mesopotamia). Civilizations can appear thousands of miles away from each other without any interaction or influence between them. I think it is safe to say that civilizations occurred wherever mankind concentrated themselves. The Danubian civilization does back this kind of thinking more so than the idea that one civilization gave birth to all others.
Actually I think that what is said in the video is exagerated. The Danubian Neolithical cultures that makes the so-called Dabunian Civilisation (Vinca-Turdaș, Criș, Hamangia, Cucuteni, Gumelnița, Boian etc) were in fact the offsprings of migrations from Anatolia and Fertile Crescent toward Europe of early agricultors and the Vinca-Turdaș script, while the oldest system of writing in the world, didn't developed in a large scale practice, there are no more than some hundreds discoveries of pottery shards and other pieces bearing (usually only one) such signs and the society wasn't yet highly structured and hierarchized like the Sumerian one.
And perhaps more important, the Vinca-Turdaș script was an isolated phenomenon, it disappeared with the end of this material culture (with some echos perhaps in the later Cucuteni culture).
Anyway, right now when writing these things, an idea came to my mind: the end of Vinca-Turdas culture (5500–4500 BCE) roughly corresponded with the beginning os the Sumerian civilisation who was founded by people who migrated in Mesopotamia coming from som other area, so, is not excluded that people of the Vinca-Turdaș culture to have migrated back in the lands where their ancestors came from and brought there the discovery of writing, which was later developed in the Cuneiform script.
Such Europe-to-Asia direction of migration was frequent in history, for example, the Hittites came in Anatolia from Balkans (or just passing through Balkans), so did the Phrygians (relatives to later Thracians), the Galatians (Celts) etc.
Location: In a Galaxy far, far away called Germany
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This certainly is plausible. The Black Sea/Bosphorus was a natural highway for populations/tribes and chances are that it was used in such a way even before The Hittites, the Phrygian and Galatian Celts.
The Vinca pottery (above) is almost indistinguishable from Ubaid Sumerian (Ubaid is the oldest, initial phase o the Sumerian material culture, corresponding temporarily with the end of Vinca-Turdas culture).
I think the first civilisation was in Turkey. I mean Gobleki-tepi for instance is supposed to be 12,000 years old.
Civilization or civilisation (in British English) generally refers to state polities which combine these basic institutions: a ceremonial centre (a formal gathering place for social and cultural activities), a system of writing, and a city. The term is used to contrast with other types of communities including hunter-gatherers, nomadic pastoralists and tribal villages.
So, apparently, there have been two movements between Near East and Europe in Neolithic:
-first in the early Neolithic, when agricultors from Anatolia (and perhaps from the Fertile Crescent) settled in Balkans and Romania around 7,000 BCE
- 2-3 millenia later another movement took place in the opposite direction, from today Romania and Serbia toward Mesopotamia.
The European population of Turdaș-Vinča cultur discovered the writing and the metallurgy for the first time in human history and brought these discoveries to Mesopotamia where the Vinča Script was developed into the Cuneiform Script and the Sumerian culture has reached higher levels of development because of the hierarchization of society that brought the possibility of erecting imposing temples and cities.
So, apparently, there have been two movements between Near East and Europe in Neolithic:
-first in the early Neolithic, when agricultors from Anatolia (and perhaps from the Fertile Crescent) settled in Balkans and Romania around 7,000 BCE
- 2-3 millenia later another movement took place in the opposite direction, from today Romania and Serbia toward Mesopotamia.
The European population of Turdaș-Vinča cultur discovered the writing and the metallurgy for the first time in human history and brought these discoveries to Mesopotamia where the Vinča Script was developed into the Cuneiform Script and the Sumerian culture has reached higher levels of development because of the hierarchization of society that brought the possibility of erecting imposing temples and cities.
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Hi Carpathian
Excellent thread. I love to study this era of history. However the idea that people were migrating back to the Anatolian region from the Balkans is new to me. I was surprised to see your comment about the Hittites especially. I had read about the Hittites but never heard that they came to Turkey from the Balkans. Do you have any references for this? I wonder if there were known climate changes that would have prompted such a migration.
The problem with the Vinca script is that they don't know if it is an alphabet or merely pictograms. Either is impressive, but true writing would make a better point for this being a "civilization."
Also, we don't know how many of the other elements were there, such as an accurate calendar and the like.
Still, this absolutely amazed me when I first heard it.
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The Hittites
