U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > History
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-04-2013, 12:42 PM
 
Location: Romania
1,461 posts, read 2,061,614 times
Reputation: 861

Advertisements

A new theory by the "world's leading expert on ancient scripts and languages", Harald Haarmann.


What you think?


Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-04-2013, 02:17 PM
 
Location: In a Galaxy far, far away called Germany
4,288 posts, read 3,792,703 times
Reputation: 2341
Very interesting. However, I think it is a fallacy to look for the "first" high civilization and then declare it the cradle of civilization (like we did with Mesopotamia). Civilizations can appear thousands of miles away from each other without any interaction or influence between them. I think it is safe to say that civilizations occurred wherever mankind concentrated themselves. The Danubian civilization does back this kind of thinking more so than the idea that one civilization gave birth to all others.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-04-2013, 02:41 PM
 
Location: Romania
1,461 posts, read 2,061,614 times
Reputation: 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldawg82 View Post
Very interesting. However, I think it is a fallacy to look for the "first" high civilization and then declare it the cradle of civilization (like we did with Mesopotamia). Civilizations can appear thousands of miles away from each other without any interaction or influence between them. I think it is safe to say that civilizations occurred wherever mankind concentrated themselves. The Danubian civilization does back this kind of thinking more so than the idea that one civilization gave birth to all others.
Actually I think that what is said in the video is exagerated. The Danubian Neolithical cultures that makes the so-called Dabunian Civilisation (Vinca-Turdaș, Criș, Hamangia, Cucuteni, Gumelnița, Boian etc) were in fact the offsprings of migrations from Anatolia and Fertile Crescent toward Europe of early agricultors and the Vinca-Turdaș script, while the oldest system of writing in the world, didn't developed in a large scale practice, there are no more than some hundreds discoveries of pottery shards and other pieces bearing (usually only one) such signs and the society wasn't yet highly structured and hierarchized like the Sumerian one.

And perhaps more important, the Vinca-Turdaș script was an isolated phenomenon, it disappeared with the end of this material culture (with some echos perhaps in the later Cucuteni culture).




Anyway, right now when writing these things, an idea came to my mind: the end of Vinca-Turdas culture (5500–4500 BCE) roughly corresponded with the beginning os the Sumerian civilisation who was founded by people who migrated in Mesopotamia coming from som other area, so, is not excluded that people of the Vinca-Turdaș culture to have migrated back in the lands where their ancestors came from and brought there the discovery of writing, which was later developed in the Cuneiform script.

Such Europe-to-Asia direction of migration was frequent in history, for example, the Hittites came in Anatolia from Balkans (or just passing through Balkans), so did the Phrygians (relatives to later Thracians), the Galatians (Celts) etc.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-04-2013, 03:30 PM
 
Location: In a Galaxy far, far away called Germany
4,288 posts, read 3,792,703 times
Reputation: 2341
This certainly is plausible. The Black Sea/Bosphorus was a natural highway for populations/tribes and chances are that it was used in such a way even before The Hittites, the Phrygian and Galatian Celts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-04-2013, 04:25 PM
 
Location: Romania
1,461 posts, read 2,061,614 times
Reputation: 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldawg82 View Post
This certainly is plausible.

Apparently, I was right:








The Vinca pottery (above) is almost indistinguishable from Ubaid Sumerian (Ubaid is the oldest, initial phase o the Sumerian material culture, corresponding temporarily with the end of Vinca-Turdas culture).

The Vinca Culture (Old Europe).
.
.
.
.
.
.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-04-2013, 08:50 PM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,781 posts, read 16,641,261 times
Reputation: 2833
I think the first civilisation was in Turkey. I mean Gobleki-tepi for instance is supposed to be 12,000 years old.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-04-2013, 11:57 PM
 
Location: Romania
1,461 posts, read 2,061,614 times
Reputation: 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postman View Post
I think the first civilisation was in Turkey. I mean Gobleki-tepi for instance is supposed to be 12,000 years old.

Civilization or civilisation (in British English) generally refers to state polities which combine these basic institutions: a ceremonial centre (a formal gathering place for social and cultural activities), a system of writing, and a city. The term is used to contrast with other types of communities including hunter-gatherers, nomadic pastoralists and tribal villages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-05-2013, 06:22 PM
 
Location: Romania
1,461 posts, read 2,061,614 times
Reputation: 861
So, apparently, there have been two movements between Near East and Europe in Neolithic:


-first in the early Neolithic, when agricultors from Anatolia (and perhaps from the Fertile Crescent) settled in Balkans and Romania around 7,000 BCE


- 2-3 millenia later another movement took place in the opposite direction, from today Romania and Serbia toward Mesopotamia.






The European population of Turdaș-Vinča cultur discovered the writing and the metallurgy for the first time in human history and brought these discoveries to Mesopotamia where the Vinča Script was developed into the Cuneiform Script and the Sumerian culture has reached higher levels of development because of the hierarchization of society that brought the possibility of erecting imposing temples and cities.









v
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-06-2013, 04:54 AM
 
Location: NW Indiana
1,353 posts, read 1,219,049 times
Reputation: 2101
Default The Hittites

Quote:
Originally Posted by CARPATHIAN View Post
So, apparently, there have been two movements between Near East and Europe in Neolithic:


-first in the early Neolithic, when agricultors from Anatolia (and perhaps from the Fertile Crescent) settled in Balkans and Romania around 7,000 BCE


- 2-3 millenia later another movement took place in the opposite direction, from today Romania and Serbia toward Mesopotamia.






The European population of Turdaș-Vinča cultur discovered the writing and the metallurgy for the first time in human history and brought these discoveries to Mesopotamia where the Vinča Script was developed into the Cuneiform Script and the Sumerian culture has reached higher levels of development because of the hierarchization of society that brought the possibility of erecting imposing temples and cities.







v
Hi Carpathian

Excellent thread. I love to study this era of history. However the idea that people were migrating back to the Anatolian region from the Balkans is new to me. I was surprised to see your comment about the Hittites especially. I had read about the Hittites but never heard that they came to Turkey from the Balkans. Do you have any references for this? I wonder if there were known climate changes that would have prompted such a migration.

Thanks
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-06-2013, 05:19 AM
 
3,689 posts, read 2,650,257 times
Reputation: 7201
The problem with the Vinca script is that they don't know if it is an alphabet or merely pictograms. Either is impressive, but true writing would make a better point for this being a "civilization."

Also, we don't know how many of the other elements were there, such as an accurate calendar and the like.

Still, this absolutely amazed me when I first heard it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > History
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top