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Old 02-12-2014, 02:40 PM
Status: "111 N/A" (set 1 day ago)
 
12,910 posts, read 13,591,829 times
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IMO There was many professions that were considered black work and those jobs were done exclusively by blacks even during slavery, Jim Crow and segregation. Cooking, serving, shining shoes, Barbering, and train porters, were among the professions were blacks could come and go among an all white clientele in a segregated environment. The Cotton Club was well known for its highly acclaimed Black Jazz Bands, but no blacks were allowed entrance to the club as patrons.
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Old 02-12-2014, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Type 0.73 Kardashev
11,110 posts, read 9,757,793 times
Reputation: 40161
To the claim:
They [Libertarians] want businesses to be able to discriminate based on race.

You replied:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Listener2307 View Post
Nah....

Read their platform. Then you will know.
Then you quoted the platform [the highlights are yours]:
Quote:
Libertarians embrace the concept that all people are born with certain inherent rights. We reject the idea that a natural right can ever impose an obligation upon others to fulfill that "right." We condemn bigotry as irrational and repugnant. Government should neither deny nor abridge any individual's human right based upon sex, wealth, ethnicity, creed, age, national origin, personal habits, political preference or sexual orientation. Parents, or other guardians, have the right to raise their children according to their own standards and beliefs. This statement shall not be construed to condone child abuse or neglect.......
The problem is, none of what you cited has any bearing on whether or not the Libertarian Party thinks businesses should be allowed to discriminate based on race. The platform condemns such discrimination, but so what? Parties condemn all sorts of things they don't advocate banning. All the platform suggests is that government (not private businesses) should not discriminate based on the listed factors.

Surely you recall the brouhaha when Rand "I'm as Libertarian!" Paul stated on multiple occasions in 2010 that he thought privates businesses should have the right to discriminate however they wish, though he noted he would 'abhor' racial such racial discrimination.
Rand Paul, the Civil Rights Act, and Private Discrimination

Do you then recall how Libertarians flocked to Paul's defense?
Libertarians On Paul's Civil Rights Stance: 'Very Reasonable'

Quote:
Paul's stance is "very reasonable, and quite close to the Libertarian position," a spokesman for the Libertarian Party told TPMmuckraker.

"If some private business discriminates we think that's unfortunate, but we don't think the government should get involved in banning it," said the spokesman, Wes Benedict. "That's just a negative that we have to tolerate in a free society."
Quote:
Walter Block, a libertarian professor of economics at Loyola University, and a senior fellow with the libertarian Ludwig Von Mises Institute, went further. "I think anyone who doesn't believe that isn't a libertarian," he said, calling Paul's comment "a very mainstream libertarianism."
Quote:
Harry Browne, the late libertarian activist and presidential candidate, appears to have taken the same view. "Neither before nor after the Civil Rights Act were people free to make their own decisions about whom they would associate with," he wrote in 2003. "The civil rights movement wasn't opposed to using government to coerce people. It merely wanted the government to aim its force in a new direction. Although the activists believed coercion served the noble objective of bringing the races closer together, it was coercion nonetheless."
Quote:
David Bernstein, a libertarian law professor at George Mason University and the author of the 2003 book You Can't Say That! The Growing Threat To Civil Liberties From Anti-Discrimination Laws, confirmed that opposition to the ban on racial discrimination by private businesses was a mainstream position in libertarian circles both at the time of the Civil Rights Act and today. "The foundation of libertarian thinking is private property as a limit on state action," he said. "So if a private business chooses to discriminate, a typical libertarian would say that's a business owner's right to do so."
While such views weren't universal (what views ever are in a party?), they were rather widespread, as you can see above.

Of course, Rand Paul couldn't take the heat for his clearly-stated position, so promptly abandoned it.
The Washington Monthly

I guess he thought there was more support for the right to discriminate based on race.

So clearly, d from birmingham's comment "They want businesses to be able to discriminate based on race" was spot on.
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Old 02-12-2014, 04:32 PM
 
261 posts, read 416,262 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wehotex View Post
In the movies that depict the segregation era, we always see white workers telling black patrons that they would not be served. Were blacks ever hired for these positions to serve white customers?

Yes blacks worked in the kitchen of the restaraunts as cooks and dishwashers. I don't remember if they worked as busboys or not, but I know they had no black waitresses in the segregated restaraunts.
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Old 02-12-2014, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Consciousness
659 posts, read 1,168,622 times
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FBI — Human Trafficking

Human Trafficking | Polaris Project | Combating Human Trafficking and Modern-day Slavery
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Old 02-12-2014, 05:02 PM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
23,919 posts, read 32,249,118 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blktoptrvl View Post
Isn't it amazing how many people look back to the sixties and beyond with great fondness reporting to anyone who will listen how great it was for everyone - especially how content black people were with segregation.

And I am one of them. The 1960s were an incredible decade of change and progress for the US. That's when people overturned institutionalized racism. That was the first time that American citizens began to question a war - in large numbers.

For most Americans, the 1960s was a decade of economic growth and middle class stability.
It was an amazing time. I saw so much change.

The progress stopped in 1980.
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Old 02-12-2014, 07:29 PM
 
Location: NC
4,532 posts, read 8,849,466 times
Reputation: 4754
Quote:
Originally Posted by canadian citizen View Post
You might find it interesting to read some of the autobiographies by people like Ray Charles, or Chuck Berry, who were black entertainers in the 50's and 60s'. They were welcome to play a show in a city, and make lots of money for the promoters, BUT they couldn't get a meal in the club that they were performing at.... They had to eat in the kitchen, out of sight. They had to find a boarding house or hotel that served black people, or they slept in their car, or bus.

That was why the southern "chitlin circuit " came into being, to allow popular black acts to tour the south, and play to black audiences, and stay in comfort after their performance was over. Acts like The Isley Brothers were selling records all over the USA, but they couldn't get a glass of water in most southern cafes, unless it was "blacks only ",

This why black acts loved coming to Canada, where they were treated as equals. When Motown was big, their first stops on a tour, would be Toronto and then Montreal, as they knew that the customers would be happy to see them, and that they could relax and enjoy the experience of being in a country that was not racist towards them.

To answer your question directly. Yes blacks were employed in segregated cafes...BUT not out front, just in the kitchen. Remember that all through the Second World War, the US Navy would only allow American blacks to be cooks or laundrymen, and the US Army had many all black labour battalions, who were not trusted with weapons, just shovels and picks. Isn't it ironic that American blacks were second class citizens, at home, but they were sent to Europe to help to defeat the Nazis ?

A double standard, for sure.

Jim B.

Toronto.
Totally agree! I worked in the hospitality industry when I moved here in the early 70's from the UK. My co-workers had worked in the "back of the house" of white businesses in the 60's so I know this to be true. I heard many stories of how they were treated - good and bad. I also was saddened to learn about black entertainers have limited options when traveling the US. and also saw the Motown folks come to England in the late 60's and early 70's and be totally shocked at how much we loved and welcomed them.

I had close black friends when I first moved here. We had to be so careful of where we went, who saw us, where we ate, how we traveled. We Always had to watch our backs. It made so sad to see how they were treated...and by association, how I was treated. It didn't deter me, or change my friendships, i had to stand up to quite a few ppl and become pretty scrappy about it all.

I was told many times I needed to know "my place" as that's how it was here, and that I wasn't in England anymore.

I still feel that American Black History in schools here, doesn't paint a true picture of this terrible time in US history. Even the early post segregation days...unless someone experienced it, you cannot imagine how frightening it could be.
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Old 02-12-2014, 08:48 PM
 
Location: West of Louisiana, East of New Mexico
2,916 posts, read 2,984,816 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d from birmingham View Post
" Africans assumed that Europeans viewed slavery the same way they did: freeing slaves was not unheard of, and the condition was not passed down from parent to child."

Not true. Many African slaves were used as sacrifices or used as slave soldiers. Slaves sold for money had the children be slaves as well. Sorry but slavery still exists in Africa today with several countries having 20% or more of the populace being slaves such as Mauritania. Arabs used female slaves in ways that made the Europeans disgusted because no female slave over the age of ten remained a virgin.

You still had Arab ships doing raids on African villages at the start of the 20th century to capture slaves. It was the US and UK navies who often had to intercept these ships and free the people who had been taken into slavery.

Welcome to Encyclopædia Britannica's Guide to Black History

"Approximately 18 million Africans were delivered into the Islamic trans-Saharan and Indian Ocean slave trades between 650 and 1905. In the second half of the 15th century Europeans began to trade along the west coast of Africa, and by 1867 between 7 million and 10 million Africans had been shipped as slaves to the New World. "

" African slave owners demanded primarily women and children for labour and lineage incorporation and tended to kill males because they were troublesome and likely to flee. The transatlantic trade, on the other hand, demanded primarily adult males for labour and thus saved from certain death many adult males who otherwise would have been slaughtered outright by their African captors. After the end of the transatlantic trade, a few African societies at the end of the 19th century put captured males to productive work as slaves, but this usually was not the case before that time."
Still absolving.

No conversation can be had about American slavery, because whites are afraid to even talk about it. Blacks in America don't live in the Middle East or Africa, so the only slavery that affects our (recent) history was carried out on this soil. Again, similar to Jews, they were persecuted by everyone. However, Nazi Germany and the Holocaust have impacted those living today more than English or Spanish persecution from 600 years before WWII. Germany can apologize, yet our own country cannot.
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Old 02-12-2014, 09:17 PM
 
Location: Native Floridian, USA
5,297 posts, read 7,598,240 times
Reputation: 7479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Listener2307 View Post
I have not met one. Not a single one. That attitude is not tolerated where I go, and anyone who intimates such things is met by stoney stares by those too shy to do otherwise, and a nose to nose rebuke by those who are prone to speak out.
good post. I do not know of anyone, and I was born and raised in the south, who wishes to go back to the old days of segregation.

Black male servers worked in the Morrison Cafeterias when I was growing up in the early (?) 1950's. We thought they were wonderful. They dressed in uniforms and I think I remember they wore gloves. They carried your tray to the table and you tipped them. They were very dignified and so were we, we were so awed by their formal demeanor. It was a good memory. It was a working arrangement, the same as if a white person were serving but much more exotic in our simple world.

eta: I won't bother reading the rest of the thread as it is the same ole, same ole....it will never be let to die down. 200 years from now, if the country is still here, people will still be talking about bad old America while slavery is alive and well in Africa today.
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Old 02-12-2014, 09:43 PM
 
Location: NE Mississippi
25,404 posts, read 17,082,401 times
Reputation: 37076
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnieA View Post
good post. I do not know of anyone, and I was born and raised in the south, who wishes to go back to the old days of segregation...........eta: I won't bother reading the rest of the thread as it is the same ole, same ole....it will never be let to die down. 200 years from now, if the country is still here, people will still be talking about bad old America while slavery is alive and well in Africa today.
It's a regular Merry Go Round.....
Seems like everyone with a keyboard is fully informed about the way things used to be and what motivates Southerners now......

There were some good comments in this thread, though. I really loved hearing the other first hand accounts of the way things were at some point in time and at some place. I left the South and roamed for most of my life. Went all over the world on business. I was honestly stunned at the change when I returned.
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Old 02-13-2014, 01:20 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
2,869 posts, read 4,433,693 times
Reputation: 8287
Another fact that many Americans do not know..........

During the Second World War, about 17,000 American citizens, including many Black Americans, came to Canada , to volunteer to join the Canadian military services, before Pearl Harbour ever happened.

ALL of them, including the black Americans, were treated equally, and ALL of them were allowed to join any unit, in any branch of service, Army , Navy or Air Force. If a man had the education and ability , he could be promoted, regardless of his skin colour. Some had enlisted under a false name, due to the American laws of that time period, that forbade " foreign military service ". Some died under that name and were buried in a Canadian military grave, in the country where they had fallen. Others served, and at the end of the war, they decided to stay in Canada, and became citizens here.

By the same token, during the American Civil War, about 40,000 men from what was then known as British North America ( now Canada ) went to the USA, and volunteered to serve in the Union Army. Many of them were lured by the idea of being paid to take another man's place, for money. At that time with a draft law in place, a American could avoid service, by hiring another man to "take his place " in the army. The normal bounty was 400 dollars, if the man was killed in service, that amount would be paid to his wife or mother, in Canada. That is where the term " He bought the farm " comes from.

During the Civil War, 19 men from Canada won the Medal of Honor. The last Canadian to be awarded the
Medal Of Honor, was John Lemon, from Toronto, in Viet Nam, April the 1st , 1970. In total 61 Canadians have been awarded the Medal Of Honor.

Jim B.

Toronto.
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