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Interesting how many examples there are in the world of places going to hell once the Europeans leave and/or are massacred. Someone (though certainly never me) might make the argument that some people are better off being ruled by colonial masters than they are left to their own devices. Zimbabwe comes to mind.
Perhaps you should look to Zimbabwe's neighbor to the west. Botswana was a British protectorate and only given this status (and not transferred to South Africa) because of its strategic location in Britain's Cape-to-Cairo Axis. Being 75% arid, Britain did not relish having Botswana as a colony and very few Europeans settled there. Upon independence, long forgotten Botswana was one of the poorest countries in the world while Zimbabwe was one of the wealthiest in Sub-Saharan Africa. I'm not sure how you are leaving out of the discussion the Ian Smith dictatorship and 1/3 of Zimbabwean Parliament being reserved for whites and whites owning 70% of arable land up through the 1990s despite being 4% of the population at their peak. The massive mismanagement and human rights violations of Mugabe did not happen overnight nor did they happen in a vacuum. All of the while, without European "help", Botswana has transformed itself into the most prosperous Sub-Saharan Africa country (based on HDI) and has a standard of living similar to that of Turkey. Botswana's major issue is now its border with Zimbabwe and the fallout of HIV transported by Zimbabwe's landless migrant workers and diseases potentially infecting their cattle.
I mean you left out the harm the Federal Reserve has caused but other then that, you are dead on.
That's a dissertation in its own right! Although the impact on the middle class of moving off of the gold standard has largely been attributed to Nixon, FDR definitely set the wheels in motion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative
Perhaps you do not realize it but you are blaming Haiti's problems today off on another country.
You talk about the American foreign aid as the problem but the foreign aid is actually a symptom of the real problem. And that is after 200 years of independence why does Haiti still need foreign aid in the first place?
Why does Haiti still need foreign aid? The United States is the global leader in supplying foreign aid. I'm not even remotely curious as to why the United States would give Haiti foreign aid. As I stated earlier (perhaps you should read the link again), it the U.S. that has been pumping foreign aid into St. Domingue since 1791; U.S. foreign aid predates Haitian independence. And that was foreign aid to suppress independence in the first place by financing slavemasters who certainly didn't need the money. Why stop now? More perplexing to me is the $10 billion outlay to Afghanistan in FY 2012 as well as nearly $1 billion given to Russia in FY 2011 and the hundreds of millions of dollars given to Russia yearly since. Think that is coming back to bite us? But hey, who am I to judge? If the U.S. is doling out foreign aid then Haiti is just as worthy as any to receive it.
Perhaps you should look to Zimbabwe's neighbor to the west. Botswana was a British protectorate...
Instead of correlating the success or failure of a former colony based upon characteristics of the colonizer, perhaps a better predictor would be the level of violence that was experienced in the independence process. Brutal repression, met with increasing brutality on the part of independence movements. The more brutal the war for independence the more brutal and despotic the "revolutionary" government.
I also hasten to add that there is a long history of hard won revolutions being betrayed after seeking to reconcile with their former masters. The Haitian revolt against the French was particularly brutal with massacres and atrocities committed by both sides during the 13 years of the revolt.
How much do I think about this or the nation of Haiti at all? Not a damn bit..
Is it me or does anyone else see the irony in that comment...
No Gunny, the blame for Haiti can be evenly spread over a broad number of nations, France, Great Britain, the U.S. and yes Haiti itself.
Just a note: I was there for the 1991 Coup against Aristide and came to the opinion that the place should be nuked and started all over again by the forced deportation of all bright and well educated Haitian Americans - I was drunk at the time - being shot at does that to me.
teelers10 Botswana is a country with a tiny population. Around 2 million. The big diamond companies decided to make a " good example" african country with little populated botswana to cover the african reality... a total mess, massive corruption everywhere, unable to create a civilization...
It's all a big fake... educational development is unreal, they boast about the population percentage attending secondary school, but very few graduates, the represion against the SAN people is huge and the botswana " government" doesn't care about UN resolutions... and nobody is going to enforce the international law as they did with with SA... healthcare system is awful with a life expectancy around 55, crime is increasing...
But curiously they still keep a 3% of white population and they don't expel them as they did in Zimbabwe.
teelers10 Botswana is a country with a tiny population. Around 2 million. The big diamond companies decided to make a " good example" african country with little populated botswana to cover the african reality... a total mess, massive corruption everywhere, unable to create a civilization...
It's all a big fake... educational development is unreal, they boast about the population percentage attending secondary school, but very few graduates, the represion against the SAN people is huge and the botswana " government" doesn't care about UN resolutions... and nobody is going to enforce the international law as they did with with SA... healthcare system is awful with a life expectancy around 55, crime is increasing...
But curiously they still keep a 3% of white population and they don't expel them as they did in Zimbabwe.
Despite your "response" being completely incoherent and unbelievably even more false (Botswana is in the top quintile of the world's freest economies and at least top sextile of least corrupt countries in the world), I will be sure to contact the Batswana I went to college with to let them know their entire existence is a "big fake" and just some alternate reality created in a menagerie by big diamond companies to provide a "good example" to someone for...whatever.
P.S. And you be sure to tell the white population of Botswana to thank the blacks for "keeping" them!
I know this thread is cherry-picking one event from Haitian history to make the case (I suppose) that black Haitians were somehow more sinister than their white masters, but could we refrain from cherry-picking entire countries to make the case of the evil black people. Thanks.
Last edited by Steelers10; 04-18-2014 at 05:11 PM..
Reason: Providing sources
I know this thread is cherry-picking one event from Haitian history to make the case (I suppose) that black Haitians were somehow more sinister than their white masters, but could we refrain from cherry-picking entire countries to make the case of the evil black people. Thanks.
I was find it interesting that how some can look the tumultuous, and in historical terms, exceedingly brief histories of development when if we could go back in time we could very well be discussing the conditions of what we refer to today as "developed" nations. This is especially true when we look at the broad swatch of human history that realistically be dates back some 150,000 years. Even if we look at the most extant stone age cultures, exactly how far behind are they to the most developed cultures when we look at the totality of human history, 100 years, 500, or even 1,000 would only comprise a blink of an eye. I suppose that is why I take a more sanguined view regarding so-called backward nations. The process of human socio-political evolution is a slow process, and even when it comes to developed nations (see Russia and the Ukraine) none of us are that far from our primitive past.
Instead of correlating the success or failure of a former colony based upon characteristics of the colonizer, perhaps a better predictor would be the level of violence that was experienced in the independence process. Brutal repression, met with increasing brutality on the part of independence movements. The more brutal the war for independence the more brutal and despotic the "revolutionary" government.
I also hasten to add that there is a long history of hard won revolutions being betrayed after seeking to reconcile with their former masters. The Haitian revolt against the French was particularly brutal with massacres and atrocities committed by both sides during the 13 years of the revolt.
Exactly. The United States was actually a rarity for a former colony in that there has always been a peaceful transfer of power (ironically Botswana has always had peaceful transfers of power between administration too). The United States is fortunate to have had George Washington as a stabilizing force and was willing to serve as president. What is rare (but not completely unique to the United States) is that the source of wealth for American Presidents and Congressmen is not the "state" and they are generally independently wealthy. In terms of their private lives, serving as politician historically has been an economic step down.
In Haiti, as former slaves they were their own most valuable commodity. There could be no initial peaceful transfer of power as it was necessary for Toussaint L'Ouverture to convince the former slaves to still work on the very same plantations on which they were imprisoned to produce sugar. It is comical to hear these contemporary criticism of Haiti's leaders. So yes, through our contemporary lens Jean Pierre Boyer was a dictator who stayed in power for 25 years. Yes it was under his administration that Haiti was saddled with the backbreaking indemnity that had to be paid to France. But Boyer tried to generate revenue by inviting African American Freedmen and resurrecting the fermage system. He also prevented Haitians from being re-enslaved and kept the Dominicans from being recolonized. It was only after his ouster did Haiti become destabilized. So what was more preferable, "stability" provided by slavemasters or emancipation resulting in having persona non grata status foisted upon you as a nation by European imperialists?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto
I was find it interesting that how some can look the tumultuous, and in historical terms, exceedingly brief histories of development when if we could go back in time we could very well be discussing the conditions of what we refer to today as "developed" nations. This is especially true when we look at the broad swatch of human history that realistically be dates back some 150,000 years. Even if we look at the most extant stone age cultures, exactly how far behind are they to the most developed cultures when we look at the totality of human history, 100 years, 500, or even 1,000 would only comprise a blink of an eye. I suppose that is why I take a more sanguined view regarding so-called backward nations. The process of human socio-political evolution is a slow process, and even when it comes to developed nations (see Russia and the Ukraine) none of us are that far from our primitive past.
There really was no such thing as a "developed" nation prior to the 1700s. "Teotihuacan" was larger and more developed than any European city of its era. But due to the later devastation of the Aztecs (a catastrophic earthquake decimating Tenochtitlan preceded the arrival of the Spanish) we point the finger at them and say, well this demographic collapse was somehow a byproduct of weakness. What if a catastrophic earthquake didn't strike Haiti in 1843? Would it still control the entire island of Hispanola today? Would there be cooperation (or outright amalgamation) between Haitians and Dominicans? Despite assassinating him, the Dominicans still did elect Ulises Heaureaux in the 1880s indicating they didn't have an exclusively negative view toward Haitian heritage at the time. We cannot dismiss the World Systems approach and act as if Haiti's development occurred in a vacuum.
Note: as it pertains to Russia and the Ukraine, yes Haiti did receive $1 billion in U.S. foreign aid in the aftermath of the earthquake. But Russia received nearly $1 billion the following year in FY 2012 (and Ukraine $400 million I believe). Haiti's not taking the $1 billion and invading the Dominican Republic. Who is more "civilized" again?
Last edited by Steelers10; 04-18-2014 at 08:17 PM..
Reason: link activation
In Haiti, as former slaves they were their own most valuable commodity. There could be no initial peaceful transfer of power as it was necessary for Toussaint L'Ouverture to convince the former slaves to still work on the very same plantations on which they were imprisoned to produce sugar. It is comical to hear these contemporary criticism of Haiti's leaders. So yes, through our contemporary lens Jean Pierre Boyer was a dictator who stayed in power for 25 years. Yes it was under his administration that Haiti was saddled with the backbreaking indemnity that had to be paid to France. But Boyer tried to generate revenue by inviting African American Freedmen and resurrecting the fermage system. He also prevented Haitians from being re-enslaved and kept the Dominicans from being recolonized. It was only after his ouster did Haiti become destabilized. So what was more preferable, "stability" provided by slavemasters or emancipation resulting in having persona non grata status foisted upon you as a nation by European imperialists??
Nice apology for a genocide.
I' d like to make a comparision.
If Jean-Jacques Dessalines were to be hitler, then Jean Pierre Boyer would be Joseph Goebbels.
Maybe your next genocide apology speech could be about those two.
I like reading supertrendy cooleftist about the haitian genocide, never ever talk about the genocide, always trying to change the subject. All in all, those poor children and women were just white, true?
I know that for the new capitalism useful fools, those genocides are "healthy", so why don't you speak about them?
Despite your "response" being completely incoherent and unbelievably even more false (Botswana is in the top quintile of the world's freest economies and at least top sextile of least corrupt countries in the world), I will be sure to contact the Batswana I went to college with to let them know their entire existence is a "big fake" and just some alternate reality created in a menagerie by big diamond companies to provide a "good example" to someone for...whatever.
P.S. And you be sure to tell the white population of Botswana to thank the blacks for "keeping" them!
I know this thread is cherry-picking one event from Haitian history to make the case (I suppose) that black Haitians were somehow more sinister than their white masters, but could we refrain from cherry-picking entire countries to make the case of the evil black people. Thanks.
Today the most loyal servants of the capitalism are the supercool trendy leftist aka useful idiots.
So are you suggesting that ranking of "freest economies" has something to do with the welfare of the common people of any nation? wow what would lenin say if he resurrected? he'd be ashamed of you.
And yes, they're "keeping" them, Botswana needs the white doctors and technicians, the same that the haitian needed them, that's why the only males spared from death were the doctors.
So talking about a genocide (because the victims were white) is "cherry-picking one event..." If you were to say the same, with the nazi regime when they killed jews, I think it could be considered a felony... but when the killers are non whites and the victims are europeans, it's even considered a nice politically correct speech.
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But hey, who am I to judge? If the U.S. is doling out foreign aid then Haiti is just as worthy as any to receive it.
