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For the most part, the west is very secularized, as is the far east. But why hasn't the middle east done so? What has kept them back? Sure one could say religion, but most of the west was extremely religious not even a few decades ago but it is not near as it used to be.
Why did the west go through secularizetion but the middle east didn't?
Why did the West embrace and then deepen The Enlightenment and Age of Reason
while the East chose to retrench from theirs when Islam came about at much the same time?
For the most part, the west is very secularized, as is the far east. But why hasn't the middle east done so? What has kept them back? Sure one could say religion, but most of the west was extremely religious not even a few decades ago but it is not near as it used to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational
Why did the West embrace and then deepen The Enlightenment and Age of Reason
while the East chose to retrench from theirs when Islam came about at much the same time?
Say what? England, Scotland, Finland, Norway and Denmark retain state religions. But if you are arguing that they observe religious tolerance then you need to add until just recently, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Algeria, Iran and guess who... Iraq were in reality quite secular, the only problem was the abject corruption of their secular leaders who effectively destroy an secular opposition leaving the organized resistance in the hands of religious fundamentalist. And I wouldn't be so quick to join into the usual Euro-centric mutual backslap, because even with the enlightenment Europe has been a shining example of "secularism" over the course of the 20th century.
For the most part, the west is very secularized, as is the far east. But why hasn't the middle east done so? What has kept them back? Sure one could say religion, but most of the west was extremely religious not even a few decades ago but it is not near as it used to be.
Earlier industrialization on the part of the West might also be a cause of this.
In the book DESTINY DISRUPTED, The author puts forward the idea that Islam does not allow for separation of church and state. Islam is a religion. Islam is a form of government. Islam is a social project. There is no separating these aspects.
I have no dog in the fight and think he might be exaggerating just a bit. It may be more appropriate to say that it is much more difficult to separate these aspects of Islam. But I thought it was a thoughtful book and thought I would pass along the theory.
For the most part, the west is very secularized, as is the far east. But why hasn't the middle east done so? What has kept them back? Sure one could say religion, but most of the west was extremely religious not even a few decades ago but it is not near as it used to be.
I think that depends on what you consider secularized. Looking at survey after survey the majority says they believe in god. L:ast survey sad 70% .I say that is pretty religious even looking back. Holding back ;you find survey show the vast majority also say this country is going backwards in many areas and time after time on the wrong path. Just looking at changes since say the 50's many say we are more self centered; less civil and certainly more violent. Seems much like past secular societies really. Certainly we see more a more laws to govern basic civil behavior these days and they grow yearly that self disaplend in society use to control with out need for law.
Europe had centuries of religious wars. Sometimes a third or more of the population of an area was wiped out due to these conflicts.
Islam did have a golden age of science and reason. They used the works of the Romans and prior empires preserving them when the copies of these works were destroyed in Europe. It was ironically enough the crusaders bringing back tomes written in Arabic that were copies of the works of the Roman philosophers and thinkers that ushered in the age of the Enlightenment.
Islamic fundamentalism is actually a product of the mid 20th century. Read about Sayyid Qutb a Wahbi Muslim. Sayyid Qutb is the person most responsible for Islamic fundamentalism and hatred of the West. Wahbism is the branch that Saudi Arabia wants to spread around the world and Mohammed Al Wahab was the person who created Wahbism in which Islam has an imaginary past that the Islamic fundies want to return to.
"Qutb's writings would later become the theoretical basis for many radical Islamic groups of today — including al Qaeda. Qutb increasingly saw the redemption of Egypt in the application of Islamic law."
"
Qutb wrote about Greeley in his book, The America I Have Seen. He offered a distorted chronology of American history: "He informed his Arab readers that it began with bloody wars against the Indians, which he claimed were still underway in 1949,""
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I think that depends on what you consider secularized. Looking at survey after survey the majority says they believe in god. L:ast survey sad 70% .I say that is pretty religious even looking back. Holding back ;you find survey show the vast majority also say this country is going backwards in many areas and time after time on the wrong path. Just looking at changes since say the 50's many say we are more self centered; less civil and certainly more violent. Seems much like past secular societies really. Certainly we see more a more laws to govern basic civil behavior these days and they grow yearly that self disaplend in society use to control with out need for law.
Actually the most secular countries on Earth tend to be the least violent.
Also bother to learn what the term secular means. It doesn't mean atheist or agnostic.
I once saw a comparison of photos from the graduating classes of 1958, 1978, and 2004, from Cairo University. In 1958, the men and women looked like any photo in the West, in 1978 there was maybe one or two women wearing veils, and nearly all the women were wearing veils in 2004. They seem to be going in the opposite direction as the West when it comes to religious fundamentalism.
I agree that it's the spread of Wahhabism from Saudi Arabia and the dissatisfaction with corrupt secular leaders that allowed it to take hold that has made the Middle East more and more fundamentalist. The Saudis import more than just oil.
One thought I had was that Christianity predates Islam by a few hundred years, so maybe it will take Muslims longer to reach their Enlightenment era. The Church went through some brutal times before they came out the other side. The Inquisition, witch trials, etc. Maybe people have to go through the excessive violent period before enlightenment can happen.
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