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Old 11-09-2008, 06:59 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
48,564 posts, read 23,971,301 times
Reputation: 21237

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SteveB
Quote:
Never saw the 10,000 planes a poster referred too
I'm going to argue that your seeing or not seeing something is not the ultimate test of whether or not that something exists or did exist at one time.

The historical records of the air defense plan for the Japanese homeland, suggests that somethig more than your not noticing them is required.

Quote:
Admiral Matome Ugaki was recalled to Japan in February 1945 and given command of the Fifth Air Fleet on Kyūshū. The Fifth Air Fleet was assigned the task of kamikaze attacks against ships involved in the invasion of Okinawa, Operation Ten-Go and began training pilots and assembling aircraft for the defense of Kyūshū where the Allies were likely to invade next.
The Japanese defense relied heavily on kamikaze planes. In addition to fighters and bombers, they reassigned almost all of their trainers for the mission, trying to make up in quantity what they lacked in quality. Their army and navy had more than 10,000 aircraft ready for use in July (and would have had somewhat more by October) and were planning to use almost all that could reach the invasion fleets. Ugaki also oversaw building of hundreds of small suicide boats that would also be used to attack any Allied ships that came near the shores of Kyūshū.
Operation Downfall - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The same figure is listed in the source I used for my post, which is:
Amazon.com: Retribution: The Battle for Japan, 1944-45: Max Hastings: Books

So, no disrespect intended to your service, but you are incorrect.
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Old 11-09-2008, 10:25 PM
 
Location: So. of Rosarito, Baja, Mexico
6,987 posts, read 21,839,646 times
Reputation: 7007
Well Stander...you are correct in your reference info....difference is that I was on Honshu about 40 miles from Tokyo. Was told my info by talking to a soldier in his house...showed me where a bomb came thru his roof. This was near the airbase I was at. I got my info straight from the horses mouth and not from reading a book. I am correct as I WAS THERE and saw the results while stationed there. Towards the end they used WOOD for some of the planes construction. The report may have stated 10,000 planes but as I was told that at my airbase the planes of wood were for the Kamakazie pilots one way flight and no return. Sorry...I was there and you were not... besides it is my personal viewpoint on seeing and relating my experiences as they were. Again, I was there. Steve
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Old 11-09-2008, 10:45 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
48,564 posts, read 23,971,301 times
Reputation: 21237
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bagu View Post
Well Stander...you are correct in your reference info....difference is that I was on Honshu about 40 miles from Tokyo. Was told my info by talking to a soldier in his house...showed me where a bomb came thru his roof. This was near the airbase I was at. I got my info straight from the horses mouth and not from reading a book. I am correct as I WAS THERE and saw the results while stationed there. Towards the end they used WOOD for some of the planes construction. The report may have stated 10,000 planes but as I was told that at my airbase the planes of wood were for the Kamakazie pilots one way flight and no return. Sorry...I was there and you were not... besides it is my personal viewpoint on seeing and relating my experiences as they were. Again, I was there. Steve
Again, no disrespect intended, but I find your claims to be without merit. You may have been there after the war ended, but you did not conduct some scientific survey where you accounted for every airplane in Japan, did you? Under the relentless air assault by the US, the Japanese had learned to disperse assets to protect them. Factories and military installations were fragmented and spread as widely as possible so that there was less to bomb in any one location. Were you expecting to see some immense airfield with 10,000 aircraft parked there, and when you didn't see one, you concluded that the planes could not exist?

The sources upon which I am relying are people who put deliberate effort into making the determinations. They examined the documents, they interviewed the relevant people, they put their professional reputations on the line when reporting their facts. The records were compiled by people who were also there, you know. But they were people in a position to know, which you were not.

So, of course I am going to believe the professionals over what appears to be some groundless wild assumption on your part based on an irrelevant connection. Now if it were the case that among your duties in Japan was investigating the number of kamikaze aircraft available at the time the war ended. that would be something which I would have to respect. That does not appear to be the case here.

Sorry
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Old 11-09-2008, 10:49 PM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,232 posts, read 46,506,167 times
Reputation: 11081
Of course, professionals often give the answers other people WANT to hear...to justify actions taken by other professionals...
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Old 11-09-2008, 11:02 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
48,564 posts, read 23,971,301 times
Reputation: 21237
Do you have any evidence of that being the case here? If so, you should present it. Otherwise, your post falls into the conspiracy theory classification, backed by data compiled at the University of the Atmosphere.
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Old 11-09-2008, 11:20 PM
 
Location: So. of Rosarito, Baja, Mexico
6,987 posts, read 21,839,646 times
Reputation: 7007
Granted that I was not privy to extensive surveys on the number and there location. I was at the plants and did see what they did and like you agreed with me on them spreading out the plants to prevent damage due to bombings. There was the (4) locations I referred too and repeating myself that I was in the final airstrip Kamakazie barracks (dorm rooms) that the pilots stayed in. I was there and it is my own personal viewing and experience talking with an individual who related lot of the info I was given. I'm not counterdicting anyone or their points of info. Seeing with your own eyes speaks more then volumes of books and references. I'm not writeing a book ...just stateing History as I lived it. I just have a few yrs left and am giving a one persons viewpoint of what I saw while I'm still around. Steve
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Old 11-10-2008, 02:06 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,568 posts, read 16,181,888 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by Grandstander
Quote:
Apparently your book is a novel.
Apparently you've never been in an army (or other group) outside your territory in a hostile environment.
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Old 11-10-2008, 04:49 PM
 
Location: Iowa
3,316 posts, read 4,099,482 times
Reputation: 4611
So even if they did have 10,000 planes left over, where were they going to get the gasoline to fly them ? I think a siege and blockaid would of gone a long ways to defeat Japan, without an invasion. Im sure we could of shot down most of their Kamakazi planes before they made it too far. Where were the 10,000 planes hidden ? Alot of them would of been destroyed on the ground, as our air raids would continue to hit anything important.
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Old 11-10-2008, 06:06 PM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,232 posts, read 46,506,167 times
Reputation: 11081
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Do you have any evidence of that being the case here? If so, you should present it. Otherwise, your post falls into the conspiracy theory classification, backed by data compiled at the University of the Atmosphere.
In this PARTICULAR case? No. But there's a reason that they say the victors write the history books.
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Old 11-10-2008, 06:31 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
48,564 posts, read 23,971,301 times
Reputation: 21237
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
In this PARTICULAR case? No. But there's a reason that they say the victors write the history books.
My complaint is this. You are employing an argument which could be used at anytime against anything. That because some in some class have done A, then we must question the legitimacy of all in that class. That is why I ask for your particulars. Otherwise we have only innuendo.

Do you have much, or any experience with the atmosphere which prevails in the academic end of the history profession? As with any profession, it contains a mixture of elites and frauds, the fair minded and the partisans, the cautious and the carefree. There is plenty of professional envy and rivalries develop, but there is also a great weapon for vanquishing the frauds, exposing the partisans and correcting the carefree. The weapon is the academic journal. Yoru career is connected to the frequency and quality of your publications, and when your article makes it in, it is at the expense of someone else who thought his or her article more deserving. Thus there is a rotating element of watchdogs who dissect all that gets published, and if they detect error, then they can get published by producing an article which debunks the earlier one.

So, there is quite a bit of self regulation which takes place within the professional historical community and it is not easy to sustain yourself long if you are a fraud. Those who rise to the ranks of getting books published, will have typically done so after having passed through the crucible of the journal experience.

Thus, if you are questioning the legitimacy of a particular historian's report on something, the innuendo approach is not going to impress other historians. You must have the goods.
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