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The exact numbers don't match, but the gist is evocatively perceptive! In all of the above-mentioned cases, the initial "revolution" and the eventual "counter-revolution" roughly bracket a human lifetime. If the 1917/1918 revolutions occurred during the childhood of a hypothetical observer, barely old enough to remember them, the concluding counter-revolutions of 1989-1991 would have occurred when the same observer would have been approaching deep dotage, but would still be sufficiently active to note how history seemingly reversed itself.
Large lurches in one or another direction, it would seem, don't outlast a human lifetime.
That's a very good observance! It almost would have happened here too as the Civil War brought the Union to the brink of collapse and it took truly total war effort to overcome the division. Fortunately for all of us the government of the people prevailed. There seems to be a Grand Test after 4 generations testing the stability of a political system to the very core and only a few ones built on sound principles will survive.
Almost sounds like The Fourth Turning by Neil / Howe. I read it again last year and boy did many of their core predictions come true.
It is also well to remember that Gorbachev had no intention of starting a revolution or displacing communism, he was out to reform, not overthrow. Sometimes these things just get away from you.
The same sort of thing is going on now with the Catholic Church. The man in charge is attempting to modernize the institution. Can the institution survive the process?
Quite different. The Pope is not the Catholic Church anymore than Obama or Bush is or was the USA. Even the Pope has limited powers. That is why its lasted for centuries while governments have come and gone and even nations. Just as every faith I know of ask in service prayers for forgiveness of sins of the Church (whatever faith);Christians know the difference between the faith and the Church. Doctrine of the church does not really change that much and is based on the Bible itself since we cannot not change the basics. Basically the Pope has just called for same thing hear for centuries; hate the sin and not the sinner. Love your fellow man; and let God judge.
Quite different. The Pope is not the Catholic Church anymore than Obama or Bush is or was the USA. Even the Pope has limited powers. That is why its lasted for centuries while governments have come and gone and even nations. Just as every faith I know of ask in service prayers for forgiveness of sins of the Church (whatever faith);Christians know the difference between the faith and the Church. Doctrine of the church does not really change that much and is based on the Bible itself since we cannot not change the basics. Basically the Pope has just called for same thing hear for centuries; hate the sin and not the sinner. Love your fellow man; and let God judge.
The church is and always has been a highly political institution. The Pope, among other things, is a politician. There are political factions within the College of Cardinals. There are conservatives and progressives. The previous Pontiff was regressive, he was displaced by a liberal reformer. And somehow or other the politics of all this are unapparent to you?
What is different now is that church politics are largely concerned with internal matters, it has lost its position of being a dominant influence on governments, but it is still politics.
It is also well to remember that Gorbachev had no intention of starting a revolution or displacing communism, he was out to reform, not overthrow. Sometimes these things just get away from you.
The same sort of thing is going on now with the Catholic Church. The man in charge is attempting to modernize the institution. Can the institution survive the process?
I wouldn't call it a Pope Francis's efforts "modernizing" the church. He is just implementing at a higher level the way he ran his local parish.
I also believe that the Catholic Church is built on stronger foundations than as the Soviet Union. There is no question about the church surviving.
Re: mgforshort's comment on having orders to 'shoot to kill'..
I guess Hungary had a different policy on that? Allegedly when guards were in court and defended themselves their lawyers noted that the GDR did NOT have a 'kill' orientation when it came to individuals going over the wall.
People, please stay on topic. If you wish to discuss the history of the Catholic church, do so in a separate thread, please. Thanks!
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Interesting fact, the Western border of Hungary with Austria was highly protected, for two reasons. The Communist regime did everything in its power to stop the loss of population (they needed their labor). The only thing they feared more was an open or covert entry from the Imperialist Dogs, like the CIA, because any substantial attack coming from the West had a chance to be welcomed and supported by the citizens, therefore ending the regime for good.
On the other hand, the other borders with Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia were much easier to cross. Since northern Yugoslavia used to be part of Hungary it was much easier for a deserter to go south, enter Yugoslavia, find someone speaking Hungarian and get help to be smuggled out from that country to Italy. If someone had gold or dollars the smugglers would get him to Italy safely.
I keep thinking that if America would have offered military support to Hungarians during the 1956 revolution, the Communist Empires could have fallen much sooner, because the Poles, East Germans and the Czechs were ready to jump into the fire. Back then our country's (USA) military was much superior to any other, including the Russians and the Chinese, and even a token show of military support from the US would have/could have ended the Communist Regimes. Back then the Hungarians idolized Americans, even more than they loved the Catholic Church, which was a major part of the silent resistance back then. Twenty thousand Hungarians died during the 56 revolution, so obviously they were willing to fight, but when the Red Army rolled in with their tanks it became a fight between a poodle and a Pit bull.
Just imagine, the Vietnam war never materialized .......
On the other hand, it could have started World War Three. God only knows.
Last edited by mgforshort; 11-12-2014 at 12:03 PM..
Interesting fact, the Western border of Hungary with Austria was highly protected, for two reasons. The Communist regime did everything in its power to stop the loss of population (they needed their labor). The only thing they feared more was an open or covert entry from the Imperialist Dogs, like the CIA, because any substantial attack coming from the West had a chance to be welcomed and supported by the citizens, therefore ending the regime for good.
On the other hand, the other borders with Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia were much easier to cross. Since northern Yugoslavia used to be part of Hungary it was much easier for a deserter to go south, enter Yugoslavia, find someone speaking Hungarian and get help to be smuggled out from that country to Italy. If someone had gold or dollars the smugglers would get him to Italy safely.
I keep thinking that if America would have offered military support to Hungarians during the 1956 revolution, the Communist Empires could have fallen much sooner, because the Poles, East Germans and the Czechs were ready to jump into the fire. Back then our country's (USA) military was much superior to any other, including the Russians and the Chinese, and even a token show of military support from the US would have/could have ended the Communist Regimes. Back then the Hungarians idolized Americans, even more than they loved the Catholic Church, which was a major part of the silent resistance back then. Twenty thousand Hungarians died during the 56 revolution, so obviously they were willing to fight, but when the Red Army rolled in with their tanks it became a fight between a poodle and a Pit bull.
Just imagine, the Vietnam war never materialized .......
On the other hand, it could have started World War Three. God only knows.
Nobody wanted to take such big risks in 1956, the last of them Pres. Eisenhower. People were still recovering from WW2 then and no-one wanted to go back to total war. Today with hardly anyone alive to remember total war as in WW2 the risk-taking is much higher again. Okinawa, anyone?
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