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Old 11-27-2014, 06:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
^
Last para I think which provides that insight to reflect on those ancient times.
Something by Josephus and Vegetius on why Rome was on top when it came to war and victories...
Vegetius: 'He who desires peace let him prepare for war. He who wants victory, let him train soldiers diligently. He who wishes a successful outcome, let him fight with strategy , not at random. No one dares challenge or harm one who he realizes will win if he fights

Josephus: it is no wonder that this vast empire of theirs has come to them as a prize of valor, not of fortune'.

Kind of has to frame the psychology of those fighting men during that time!

As an aside, Rome granted the 'missio causaria' which provided soldiers who survived their injuries a medical discharge. This gave the same privileges as those who got an honorable discharge which was the 'honesta missio'. Now it would be really intriguing if Rome gave the 'missio causaria' to those who have no obvious wounds but show say some mental disequilibrium!
Their drills are bloodless battles and their battles bloody drills

Flavius Josephus
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Old 11-27-2014, 06:14 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
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Perhaps the greatest example would be the way the Germanic tribes wiped out the first legion. Not only did they kill them but they displayed the bodies as a warning. Rome had never lost a whole legion before. When they were found it was a highly traumatic moment for the legions and the rulers, who stopped expanding, and in the end signed the end to Rome.

The Romans simply did not believe they could lose so terribly, and it turned their whole society as a result.
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Old 11-27-2014, 10:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightbird47 View Post
Perhaps the greatest example would be the way the Germanic tribes wiped out the first legion. Not only did they kill them but they displayed the bodies as a warning. Rome had never lost a whole legion before. When they were found it was a highly traumatic moment for the legions and the rulers, who stopped expanding, and in the end signed the end to Rome.

The Romans simply did not believe they could lose so terribly, and it turned their whole society as a result.
Are you talking about Tuetoburg forest? Because they had already had 7-800 years of history and had lost legions dozens of times. In the second Punic war alone they lost something like 180,000 people.

The Romans did not expand into Germany because there was nothing there to exploit. They went back all of the time for punitive expeditions/wars, particularly under Marcus Aurelius. But they looked at the Danube as a good, defensible natural border.
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Old 11-27-2014, 11:08 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
Are you talking about Tuetoburg forest? Because they had already had 7-800 years of history and had lost legions dozens of times. In the second Punic war alone they lost something like 180,000 people.

The Romans did not expand into Germany because there was nothing there to exploit. They went back all of the time for punitive expeditions/wars, particularly under Marcus Aurelius. But they looked at the Danube as a good, defensible natural border.
In part, they didn't try again. But it reflected the change in Rome, and there was immense shock of the defeat. It wasn't the numbers, it was that nobody, especially a bunch of what they considered primitives, had wiped out a full legion. The most lasting power of the defeat was psychological. They regarded the germanic tribes as mere barbarians they *should have* been able to defeat. The most important result was they began using a new method of control, absorbing (they thought) the Germanic raiders. Some were. Some were there for the money. But it was the event which marked the end of the expansion of Rome, and the cold truth was Rome was built on conquest and when it stopped it started its decline.
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Old 11-28-2014, 06:45 AM
 
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I don't think so. If you look at WWI victims of shell-shock, they exhibit exactly the symptoms psychiatrists then prescribed: shaking spasms, twitching, etc. WWII veterans didn't exhibit these. The prescribed symptoms had moved on. WWII shell shock victims were expected to be depressed and withdrawn. And that's what was exhibited.

In the 1950's and 60's, people had "nervous breakdowns". Now that psychiatrists have said there are no such things, people have stopped having them.

I believe some of today's veterans feel there is such as mental condition as PTSD and so some of them exhibit the symptoms psychiatrists say are associated with it. If they didn't know they were supposed to exhibit them, most never would.

I'm not saying there aren't after-effects from combat. I'm sure there are. Nightmares, sadness, grief at lost comrades, regret at having killed people. I think all but a handful of veterans would get over them pretty quickly if only they didn't fall into the traps psychiatrists set for them.
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Old 11-29-2014, 12:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
I don't think so. If you look at WWI victims of shell-shock, they exhibit exactly the symptoms psychiatrists then prescribed: shaking spasms, twitching, etc. WWII veterans didn't exhibit these. The prescribed symptoms had moved on. WWII shell shock victims were expected to be depressed and withdrawn. And that's what was exhibited.

In the 1950's and 60's, people had "nervous breakdowns". Now that psychiatrists have said there are no such things, people have stopped having them.

I believe some of today's veterans feel there is such as mental condition as PTSD and so some of them exhibit the symptoms psychiatrists say are associated with it. If they didn't know they were supposed to exhibit them, most never would.

I'm not saying there aren't after-effects from combat. I'm sure there are. Nightmares, sadness, grief at lost comrades, regret at having killed people. I think all but a handful of veterans would get over them pretty quickly if only they didn't fall into the traps psychiatrists set for them.
BS. They do, and not simply from suggestion. How many tours have you done?
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Old 11-29-2014, 06:30 AM
 
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I'm among the 99% of people who weren't in the army. I'm basing my opinion on the history of past psychiatric diagnostic efforts.

And don't say I'm not entitled to an opinion because I wasn't in the army. Neither was anyone else, practically speaking. My opinions on how to fire an M-16 might be worthless but as far as the history of psychological diagnoses and syndrome, the evidence of failure is plain for anyone to see.
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Old 11-29-2014, 07:47 AM
 
Location: NW Nevada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeaceAndLove42 View Post
By distant past I mean in Antiquity and Medieval days. Obviously there was no such thing as PTSD known back then, but for a King/Emperor that commanded large Armies how likely do you think PTSD would've effected them and thus their fighting ability? Now we have a more or less controlled way of fighting and we use guns but back in the days where guys had to actually get up close and personal stabbing guys and hacking off limbs wouldn't it be fair to say it was just as much, if not more of an issue?
I ha e often thought about this too. Good thread. What we now call PTSD has been called many things. Shell shock, battle fatigue etc. Anyone who has seen battle is effected by it. One is never the same afterwards. In the times you specify, it is my humble opinion, that guys went plumb nuts from battle, in one of two ways. They either turned into gibbering parody of what was once human, or into a blood drunk killing machine.

Battle , in those times, was a VERY savage affair. Unlike today, most often , a warrior was looking his enemy right in the eyes. Combat was totally personal and intimate. There is a lot of difference in squeezing a trigger at distance and running a sword into a man.

However, another huge difference twixt then and now is that warriors were not treated with anything resembling compassion or empathy if the horror of battle put them over the edge. Quite the opposite. After a big battle back then, the victors would feast and revel, and killing was not the bad thing it is today. Someone who was highly and openly disturbed by the savagery of combat would have been shunned by his peers.

Warriors were trained and conditioned from very young age back then and battle was a thing to be courted. Death and mayhem was the nature of the beast. Men of War , more often than not, had ice water for blood. There was little , if any, gentleness in the world back then. Gentle souls did not last as fighting men, unless their gentleness was destroyed by anger and hate.

There is no comparing soldiers today with warriors of yore. There are far to many differences in how people lived and were raised back then as to now. Especially as compared to life in the US today.
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Old 11-29-2014, 12:03 PM
 
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Re: the Teutoberg disaster...

Glad I wasn't there...;-)...you know it makes me think that the 'battle' kind of was like an example of battle shock running through a Roman army to the extent that it was better to commit suicide than hang around to deal with the horrors of the German attacks along a great extended line and period of time. Sure seemed to instill such a fear that the legions involved just disintegrated psychologically and physically. No way could they fight. I believe there were some survivors of the battle who made it back to Rome. Curious if they stayed in the army or had good dreams after their experience.
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Old 11-29-2014, 05:45 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
Re: the Teutoberg disaster...

Glad I wasn't there...;-)...you know it makes me think that the 'battle' kind of was like an example of battle shock running through a Roman army to the extent that it was better to commit suicide than hang around to deal with the horrors of the German attacks along a great extended line and period of time. Sure seemed to instill such a fear that the legions involved just disintegrated psychologically and physically. No way could they fight. I believe there were some survivors of the battle who made it back to Rome. Curious if they stayed in the army or had good dreams after their experience.
The thing which made this so important and crushing a defeat is by all right, the Romans *should* have won. It was a premier Legion. They were better armed, and trained and armored than the enemy. If the skies had remained dry, the battle would likely have been fought on open ground, where the Legions would have had the advantage by far.

There is a series on the weather channel and one of the moments in history they revisited was this battle. As Rome approaced, keeping to open ground, the weather turned dark and stormy and wet. It slowed them down. They had to move to higher ground, and when the battle began, the Germanic forces were able to draw them into the forest. There, with the small spaces and traps and wet weather, Roman arms and tactics were negated. Trained to fight as one, they fought individual battles. Everything I've ever seen mentions no survivors. Rome knew they had sent a Legioun, and it had not returned. When they found them still unburied, and displayed in the forest it was an immense shock and frustration. They had long been the ones who determined where the battle took place and now they were faced with a forest they would have to fight through. And an enemy who disfigured their dead as a message.

So faced with that option, they stopped. Rome made deals with tribes which they eventually grew to regret, and as the effect of cutting off that constant supply of new land and slaves and stuff accumulated, Rome began to fade long before the empire did. Sons of the same who had killed the Legions were made Legions, but under their own commanders and tactics.

Empires end in bits and pieces and the defeat and fate of the legion in that forest was a huge step toward the real end. And if it hadn't rained, it is entirely believeable things would have happened somewhat differently.
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