Lets discuss the creation of Israel

[jbgusa]

A lot of these assertions are either only partly true or partly relevant.

Originally Posted by markg91359

First of all, the last war was in 1973. That was forty-three years ago.

You're not counting the years of asymetrical warfare since that time, which the Arab countries claim they can't control. If they can control them but won't it's an extension of the war by other means. If they can't control them that means that any agreement with them isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

Originally Posted by markg91359

Which Arabs are you talking about? Egypt recognizes Israel and has diplomatic relations for many years.

Egypt is somewhat of a special case. Its political border with Israel may have jumped from the Suez Canal to the pre-1967 boundary. But the land is, with the exception of Sharm El Sheik, virtually uninhabitable desert, open land on which any military activity is readily detectable. Egypt pointedly abjured from retaking the Gaza strip and thus responsibility for an inhabited area which was not reconciled to Israel's existence as a Jewish state.

Originally Posted by markg91359

So has Jordan.

Jordan similarly has refused to retake the West Bank and thus responsibility for people who also have not reconciled themselves to Israel's existence as a Jewish state. Israel's willingness to engage such a relationship shows its dedication to peace, even though the peaceful border is largely forbidding desert. Also, Jordan gained surcease from Israel's retaliatory attacks in response to guerrilla incursions.

Originally Posted by markg91359

Turkey is not an Arab country, but it is a Muslim country and also currently recognizes Israel.

That recognition has been episodic. Turkey recognizes Israel when it needs Israel more than Israel needs Turkey. Now that Turkey has managed to alienate every other county in the region, i.e. Russia, Greece, Syria, Iraq and ISIS, Turkey needs Israel. It was far different when Turkey saw fit to arm a flotilla to break Israel's blockade on Gaza.

Originally Posted by markg91359

Saudi Arabia does not recognize Israel, but has laid out conditions for such recognition. The include Israel returning to borders that approximate what her borders were in 1967 and a resolution of the Palestinian issue. Most gulf Arab states would likely follow Saudi Arabia on this.

The expression "a resolution of the Palestinian issue" is a glib one. By Saudi and other definition that means a "right of return" of the descendants of refugees. Notable in that demand is silence about expulsion by just about every Arab country of sizable Jewish populations in 1952. The expellees had all of their property and money taken and thus were penniless. Israel was relatively poor at that point and had to absorb all of those refugees. Under these historical circumstances and Israel's identity as a Jewish state Saudi Arabia's conditions for official recognition are fatuous and impossible. Informally Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States accept Israeli aid but it is not a two-way street.

Originally Posted by markg91359

The argument that Israel needs the lands it currently has to defend itself is not true. Israel has the most powerful military in the Middle East. It possesses nuclear weapons. It defended itself successfully with much smaller borders in 1967.

Ignored is the fact that the 1949-67 armistice lines were never recognized as a border. Israel's 1949-67 borders were in the shape of a barbell, making cutting it in half easy. Without genuine, Canadian-American style peace Israel cannot retreat to those borders. As far as nuclear weapons Iran is close to being a nuclear country. The other nation-states are weak and could easily dissolve into warring factions as has Syria. There would be little to stop those factions, such as Hamas or its many equivalents from gaining nuclear weaponry and dissipating Israel's advantage.

Originally Posted by markg91359

The Palestinians have to do more if they want a peace treaty with Israel. However, if they are willing to do it, its time to reach a resolution of this dispute. That will require Israel to give up much of the occupied territories.

The Palestinians have done nothing to indicate any willingness at all to give Israel anything more than a "houdna" or ten-year Muslim truce, shortenable or extendable at their whim. In short you are not talking about a real peace. And even real peaces, such as the Vienna accords in the 1800's, have a way of dissolving into chaos once one or more parties to them believes it can overtake and overcome the other countries. Thus WW I.

[Troyfan]

Originally Posted by jbgusa

I don't quite understand what you're getting at.

Muslims claim Jerusalem as one of its most sacred sites. Therefore, they (in the form of Palestinians) should have it. The Crusaders wanted to drive the Muslims out from the land they had invaded and reclaim it for Christianity.

These claims are religious. Not dissimilar to Jewish claims that Israel is the land God gave them.

Spain, Constantinople, Vienna were also all contested between Moslems and Christians. But never on the claim to be a religious homeland or sacred site. Today, there is no losing side claiming history should be corrected and these sites returned to them. I believe this is because no great religious dimension was involved. One side won, the other lost. So be it.

Israel is different. Both sides want it for religious reasons as well as historical ones. This is something people will fight over.

[Ariete]

The Jews should be content with what they have. Share the land with the Palestinians and deal with it. I have no sympathy for the murderous Jews as they are creating their own holocaust. Israel is a nation involving in crimes agains humanity, and most European countries agree on this position.

[markg91359]

Originally Posted by Ariete

The Jews should be content with what they have. Share the land with the Palestinians and deal with it. I have no sympathy for the murderous Jews as they are creating their own holocaust. Israel is a nation involving in crimes agains humanity, and most European countries agree on this position.

I think Israel should be more reasonable attempting to reach a resolution of the Palestinian issue.

I completely disagree with your statements about "Israel creating their own holocaust" and being a "nation involved in crimes against humanity".

There is a good reason for almost everything that Israel has done to defend itself. Those who make such a criticism against Israel ignore the massive human rights abuses by such Arab countries such as Syria. I would say Bashir Assad is the worst threat to human rights in the Middle East right now.

[Ariete]

Originally Posted by markg91359

There is a good reason for almost everything that Israel has done to defend itself. Those who make such a criticism against Israel ignore the massive human rights abuses by such Arab countries such as Syria. I would say Bashir Assad is the worst threat to human rights in the Middle East right now.

There is not. What Israel does are war crimes of the 1st degree. I'm not anti-semitic in any way, but one have to realise that in Europe there hasn't been such a massive brainwashing campaign like it has been in the US. Israel crossed a point where they couldn't be only a victim, but a aggressor. MOSSAD seizing an Finnish humanitarian naval aid convoy to Gaza tells that Israel wants and is actively involved in genocide. Therefore Israel is a terrorist nation.

[jbgusa]

Originally Posted by Ariete

The Jews should be content with what they have. Share the land with the Palestinians and deal with it. I have no sympathy for the murderous Jews as they are creating their own holocaust. Israel is a nation involving in crimes agains humanity, and most European countries agree on this position.

Originally Posted by Ariete

There is not. What Israel does are war crimes of the 1st degree. I'm not anti-semitic in any way, but one have to realise that in Europe there hasn't been such a massive brainwashing campaign like it has been in the US. Israel crossed a point where they couldn't be only a victim, but a aggressor. MOSSAD seizing an Finnish humanitarian naval aid convoy to Gaza tells that Israel wants and is actively involved in genocide. Therefore Israel is a terrorist nation.

Addressing such hate filled posts is difficult without loss of temper. However, I will attempt to give a reasonable response to the points that are made here.

The Jews are far less than 1% of the population of the world; about 0.2% of the population of the world at most. Jewish numbers were severely reduced during the Holocaust of World War II, and prior to that war in other atrocities. Suffice to say that aside from English speaking countries and Israel, Jews are essentially unwelcome. That includes the European countries to which you refer. The European countries were the ones in which the Holocaust actually occurred. Without the active cooperation of the local people, Germany would not have been able to exterminate nearly as many people as it did. It is worthy of note that of the 6 billion people killed, 3 million of them lived in Poland.

As I detailed in my posts just above, Israel was offered indefensible borders when the UN ratified it's future existence in 1947. Nevertheless, in vain hope of peace the Jews accepted those boundaries. It is worthy of note that the Arabs never accepted those boundaries. There is no reason for Israel to retreat to boundaries which opposing parties never found acceptable.

Israel absolutely has had to take life to preserve its existence. The Arabs started unprovoked wars in 1948, 1967 and 1973. Both in between and since those wars, the Arab people have continued their campaign of slaughter. Israel can, should and must defend itself from that slaughter. As for the convoy, it was Turkish and not Finnish. The convoy was seized because it contained arms and not merely humanitarian aid. If the ships had allowed Israel to board and inspect, nothing bad would have happened. The opinion of the majority of countries in the world is of no relevance; there has never been much love lost between the Jews and most of these other countries. The occupation of plans after Arab wants in war is an excuse and not a reason for The dislike of Israel as a country and the Jews as a people.