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Old 08-21-2015, 08:24 PM
 
Location: Howard County, Maryland
16,295 posts, read 10,319,328 times
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Seventy years ago this month, atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, devastating both cities and ushering the world into the nuclear age. But there was another city that, except for an exceptional run of good luck, would have met the same fate.

On the day that Hiroshima was bombed, the alternate target (to be attacked in case the cloud cover was too heavy for the bomber to get a good visual sighting) was the city of Kokura. But unfortunately for the former and luckily for the latter, visibility over Hiroshima was sufficiently clear for the bombing to take place.

Three days later, Kokura's number should have come up, as it had now moved up to the head of the line and was slated to be the primary target. But though the bomber made three passes over the city, the cloud cover was just a little bit too heavy. So the plane diverted to the alternate target, and Nagasaki had its date with destiny.

In the end, I think that Kokura was one of only three important Japanese cities to avoid being bombed at all during the war. (The others were Kyoto, which was specifically spared due to its historic and cultural significance, and Niigata -- which was also on the list of potential nuclear targets.) Talk about a close shave!

Kokura, Japan - Bypassed by A-Bomb - NYTimes.com

The luck of Kokura | Restricted Data
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Old 08-22-2015, 06:29 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
8,087 posts, read 9,774,316 times
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Miss of an inch as good as a mile.
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Old 08-24-2015, 10:37 AM
 
2,362 posts, read 1,907,880 times
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kokura was the secondary target always

If Hiroshima had been clouded over, they would have dropped "little boy" on Kokura
Hiroshima WAS NOT clouded over so it got the bomb

Kokura was target for "fat man", but it was clouded over from a neighboring cities bombing so Nagasaki got it

There was no immediate third target as we didn't have a third atomic bomb yet...Kokura probably would have been it though
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Old 08-24-2015, 12:39 PM
 
Location: Prescott
424 posts, read 426,673 times
Reputation: 740
Quote:
Originally Posted by bus man View Post
Seventy years ago this month, atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, devastating both cities and ushering the world into the nuclear age. But there was another city that, except for an exceptional run of good luck, would have met the same fate.

On the day that Hiroshima was bombed, the alternate target (to be attacked in case the cloud cover was too heavy for the bomber to get a good visual sighting) was the city of Kokura. But unfortunately for the former and luckily for the latter, visibility over Hiroshima was sufficiently clear for the bombing to take place.

Three days later, Kokura's number should have come up, as it had now moved up to the head of the line and was slated to be the primary target. But though the bomber made three passes over the city, the cloud cover was just a little bit too heavy. So the plane diverted to the alternate target, and Nagasaki had its date with destiny.

In the end, I think that Kokura was one of only three important Japanese cities to avoid being bombed at all during the war. (The others were Kyoto, which was specifically spared due to its historic and cultural significance, and Niigata -- which was also on the list of potential nuclear targets.) Talk about a close shave!

Kokura, Japan - Bypassed by A-Bomb - NYTimes.com

The luck of Kokura | Restricted Data

Don't remind me. The greatest atrocity ever perpetrated by one People on another was when the good ol' US of A dropped those two bombs on all those totally innocent elderly, women, and children. Utterly despicable. Any body who drinks the Kool-Aid that we NEEDED to do it is a bleating victim of government nationalist empty jingoism. Imagine a 9/11 very day for 4 months and you have an idea of how many innocents we fried with Fat Man and Little Boy. Don't even get me started.

Hey...you need some more proof of our Government needlessly incinerating innocents? Look up this word: "Dresden."

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."
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Old 08-24-2015, 01:03 PM
 
14,780 posts, read 43,473,541 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Southpaw View Post
Don't remind me. The greatest atrocity ever perpetrated by one People on another was when the good ol' US of A dropped those two bombs on all those totally innocent elderly, women, and children. Utterly despicable. Any body who drinks the Kool-Aid that we NEEDED to do it is a bleating victim of government nationalist empty jingoism. Imagine a 9/11 very day for 4 months and you have an idea of how many innocents we fried with Fat Man and Little Boy. Don't even get me started.

Hey...you need some more proof of our Government needlessly incinerating innocents? Look up this word: "Dresden."

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."
Hardly...

We can argue the points all day long and do the cold calculus of the lives that may have been saved by those bombings and the reason the decision was made. However, it won't sway your opinion, so why bother. I created this thread years ago to cover many of the topics related to the bombings. Read them if you want more information:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/histo...-bombings.html

If only Japan who had been utterly defeated militarily had possessed the wherewithal to surrender before we forced their hand, because God help them if we had not dropped the bombs and instead chosen a course of blockade and starvation or even worse, invasion.
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Old 08-24-2015, 02:05 PM
 
14,985 posts, read 23,758,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Southpaw View Post
Don't remind me. The greatest atrocity ever perpetrated by one People on another was when the good ol' US of A dropped those two bombs on all those totally innocent elderly, women, and children. Utterly despicable. Any body who drinks the Kool-Aid that we NEEDED to do it is a bleating victim of government nationalist empty jingoism. Imagine a 9/11 very day for 4 months and you have an idea of how many innocents we fried with Fat Man and Little Boy. Don't even get me started.

Hey...you need some more proof of our Government needlessly incinerating innocents? Look up this word: "Dresden."

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."
Oh Gee...we never had a thread about that before! Oh my!


Actually, we have...many many threads...do a search Newmeat. The consensus from those that know what they are talking about is quite opposite to your conclusion, I (and probably the dozens of other regulars here that know the facts) am just tired of debating the entire topic once again for the upteenth time and trying to educate those that really have no clue.

And the topic created by the OP does not to be about the right or wrongness of the bomb dropping.
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Old 08-24-2015, 02:20 PM
 
14,985 posts, read 23,758,508 times
Reputation: 26468
Just to keep it back on topic - what was the military significance of Kokura? I know that Hiroshima had a huge military presence with some 40,000 JIA troops stationed there (surprised that allied bomber did not level that city earlier).
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Old 08-24-2015, 02:45 PM
 
14,780 posts, read 43,473,541 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Just to keep it back on topic - what was the military significance of Kokura? I know that Hiroshima had a huge military presence with some 40,000 JIA troops stationed there (surprised that allied bomber did not level that city earlier).
Kokura contained the Kokura Arsenal which was the largest small arms and artillery manufacturing facility in Japan. ALmost all of the Arisaka rifles that armed the Japanese military and their ammunition cartridges were produced in Kokura.
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Old 08-24-2015, 02:58 PM
 
Location: Prescott
424 posts, read 426,673 times
Reputation: 740
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Oh Gee...we never had a thread about that before! Oh my!


Actually, we have...many many threads...do a search Newmeat. The consensus from those that know what they are talking about is quite opposite to your conclusion, I (and probably the dozens of other regulars here that know the facts) am just tired of debating the entire topic once again for the upteenth time and trying to educate those that really have no clue.

And the topic created by the OP does not to be about the right or wrongness of the bomb dropping.
You know only what Uncle has spoon-fed you. Read some REAL revisionist historians who don't drink the Kool-Aid. Start with Howard Zinn.

And so what if there's been numerous threads on this topic. Who cares? Yeah, I'm new, so, what do you suggest I do? LOL--before I answer ANY post to hold-off and do a search and see if its been bandied about before? That's a little silly doncha think?

No clue? you talkin' to me? LOL. I could tell you mys history background but that would come across as bragging. Or I could tell you I had a close relative on Harry Truman's War Relations staff in the summer on 1945 but that would be name-dropping. So I'll leave you erudite and learned historians back to your dusty tomes that only people "who know the facts" (LOL) have access to.

LOL........pedants. To be expected I reckon on Net Forums.
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Old 08-24-2015, 03:44 PM
 
14,780 posts, read 43,473,541 times
Reputation: 14621
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Southpaw View Post
You know only what Uncle has spoon-fed you. Read some REAL revisionist historians who don't drink the Kool-Aid. Start with Howard Zinn.

And so what if there's been numerous threads on this topic. Who cares? Yeah, I'm new, so, what do you suggest I do? LOL--before I answer ANY post to hold-off and do a search and see if its been bandied about before? That's a little silly doncha think?

No clue? you talkin' to me? LOL. I could tell you mys history background but that would come across as bragging. Or I could tell you I had a close relative on Harry Truman's War Relations staff in the summer on 1945 but that would be name-dropping. So I'll leave you erudite and learned historians back to your dusty tomes that only people "who know the facts" (LOL) have access to.

LOL........pedants. To be expected I reckon on Net Forums.
Have you actually read "The Bomb" by Zinn?

There are two ways to approach this topic...

1. The historical review of the decision making process and its impact on the war. Within that conversation is the discussion of the alternative options available and whether or not the act itself was necessary to force the desired outcome. Many of those topics are covered extensively in the thread I linked to.

2. The moral debate about bombing in general. This is where Zinn builds his angle. His work attempts to prove a couple of things: 1) bombing is equivalent to other atrocities that are committed 2) "us" vs. "them" thinking and the relegation of the discussion to statistics (x people were killed) dehumanizes the enemy and the events 3) all sides in a war generally commit atrocities and that WW2 was no different.

I think the discussion of the morality of the bombing is different from the historical review of the bombing.
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