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Muslims are Kosher too. And matter of fact, Muslims RULED Europe for over 700 years. The "Dark Ages" refers to the the 700 years of history Europeans tired to wipe off the map.
And lol @ Muslims ruling Europe for 700 years. I get you're a Muslim fanboi but try to stick to the truth once in awhile.
The kosher has been covered. There is truth in the statement he made, the problem is the over-arching statement he made with it. The Moors ruled IN Europe for 700 years. They ruled the Iberian Peninsula (Spain and Portugal). His own link is exactly what this is. A very good documentary about the history of the Moors and their influence in Spain and efforts by the later Christian rules to eliminate their influence. All very accurate...but the statment that they "RULED Europe" is a ridiculous exageration.
The kosher has been covered. There is truth in the statement he made, the problem is the over-arching statement he made with it. The Moors ruled IN Europe for 700 years. They ruled the Iberian Peninsula (Spain and Portugal). His own link is exactly what this is. A very good documentary about the history of the Moors and their influence in Spain and efforts by the later Christian rules to eliminate their influence. All very accurate...but the statment that they "RULED Europe" is a ridiculous exageration.
I agree with your statement entirely. But what he said implies they were ruling Denmark and England, etc.
I agree with your statement entirely. But what he said implies they were ruling Denmark and England, etc.
Agreed, his statement was incorrect. I sincerely hope it was a matter of poor wording on his part and not a sincere belief that the Moors ruled all of Europe.
It might depend on the Shtetl. Some Shtetls could well have been trade based such as leather workers, small scale manufacture of finished items (tools, locks) etc.
My impression, however, is that a good number were agricultural villages. Even in the farming ones, not all residents would have been involved in farming, but I think many would have been.
^^^
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany
Eastern European Jews were Agricultural. Their techniques allowed them to get better output out of small plots of land. They brought those techniques to the Middle East during the 1800's when Jews were allowed to own land instead of just leasing it by the Ottoman Empire. Arabs sold them large parcels of land that they thought was worthless due to either being swampy or so dry that herding couldn't be done on it. The Israelis of today eat much more vegetables than they eat meats.
Western European Jews and North African Jews made their living in the trades, merchants, etc.
My grandmother, who was born in 1900, came from a Jewish farming family in the Russian part of Poland. She was baptized and raised Catholic because either her father or grandfather converted rather than lose their land in the pogroms of the late 1800s. According to family legend, my great grandfather was supposed to have been a "rich farmer" but that probably really meant that he owned 2-3 acres of land and a couple of cows.
While conversion to Catholicism saved my grandmother's family from the wrath of the Russian czars, it didn't help them against the Nazis. My grandmother was the only one of her family to survive WW II, and that only because she had emigrated to the US some time before 1920.
^^^
According to family legend, my great grandfather was supposed to have been a "rich farmer" but that probably really meant that he owned 2-3 acres of land and a couple of cows.
I think your guess is right, espescially if he came from Eastern Poland / northwest Belarus which had reputations as being the poor part of a poor region due to bad soils. Most of the farmers Poles, Belarusans, Jews in the area were share croppers. In all probability, share cropping in the this uhmmm.... "culturally enlightened" area (a large number of locals of any ethnic group were also functionally illiterate) was very similar to share cropping in Mississippi and Alabama. As such it would have involved a certain amount of contrived "debts" and coerced "contracts".
As you mentioned, any farmer that was not a share cropper was a rich farmer by local standards. The area also had alot of emmigration both to the United States and other parts of Europe which would explain your grand mother leaving. Catholic Poles, though a minority, were seen as the relatively more educated and economically advanced group. This could explain the conversion to Catholicism instead of Orthodoxy that was the religion of Belarusans.
I think your guess is right, espescially if he came from Eastern Poland / northwest Belarus which had reputations as being the poor part of a poor region due to bad soils. Most of the farmers Poles, Belarusans, Jews in the area were share croppers. In all probability, share cropping in the this uhmmm.... "culturally enlightened" area (a large number of locals of any ethnic group were also functionally illiterate) was very similar to share cropping in Mississippi and Alabama. As such it would have involved a certain amount of contrived "debts" and coerced "contracts".
As you mentioned, any farmer that was not a share cropper was a rich farmer by local standards. The area also had alot of emmigration both to the United States and other parts of Europe which would explain your grand mother leaving. Catholic Poles, though a minority, were seen as the relatively more educated and economically advanced group. This could explain the conversion to Catholicism instead of Orthodoxy that was the religion of Belarusans.
I know virtually nothing about where my grandmother came from in Poland because she came here under an assumed name, and that name died with her and my one aunt who was closest to her. Apparently, another family in the village was all set to emigrate when one of their daughters died. She took that girl's place (and her name until she entered the US) because her father had 5 or 6 daughters and only 1 son. She may have come before WW I as a girl or just after as a young woman. I believe she was married in Buffalo, NY about 1920 (my mother, her oldest child, was born in November, 1921, in Buffalo). My grandfather had been in the US during WW I as I have a copy of his draft card from 1916 or so.
And lol @ Muslims ruling Europe for 700 years. I get you're a Muslim fanboi but try to stick to the truth once in awhile.
Muslims conquered and occupied nearly of the Iberian Penisula in the 7th Century and their advance into Christian Europe didn't stop until they were stopped at the Battle of Tours by the Frankish King Charles Martel (aka The Hammer) in 732 AD. Tours is in the middle of France. The last Islamic foothold in Spain was not taken till 1492 a famous year in Spanish history.
Another part of Europe was taken by Islamic forces when The Ottoman Turks succeeding in taking Constantinople bringing the curtain down on the Byzantines (Eastern Roman Empire) and converted the Byzantine Basillca the Hagia Sophia in 1453 (It is still in Islamic hands today) into a great Mosque. Before that the Ottomans has moved into the Balkans and Greece taking Hungary, Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova and the Southern part of the Ukraine including the Crimea, Armenia and forced the Georgians into their mountain refuge of the Caucuses. There was a famous Battle in Poland where the Polish King beat the Ottoman's ending their advance into Poland. The Austrians stopped the Ottoman march at the gates of Vienna otherwise the next stop for the Ottomans was Central Europe and Germany via the Danube Valley.
So significant parts of Europe were under Islamic rule sometimes for seven centuries starting in the 8th Century and we can thank Charles The Hammer, The Byzantines who held them back in the East for Centuries . The Poles, Austrians Spanish and Russians for holding the line and then pushing them back reclaiming virtually all of Christian Europe. Otherwise we all would be reading in Arabic, praying 5 times a day, Eid al Kabir and Eid el Fitr would be important holidays and we would all say Allah Akbar and mean it.
I know virtually nothing about where my grandmother came from in Poland because she came here under an assumed name, and that name died with her and my one aunt who was closest to her. Apparently, another family in the village was all set to emigrate when one of their daughters died. She took that girl's place (and her name until she entered the US) because her father had 5 or 6 daughters and only 1 son. She may have come before WW I as a girl or just after as a young woman. I believe she was married in Buffalo, NY about 1920 (my mother, her oldest child, was born in November, 1921, in Buffalo). My grandfather had been in the US during WW I as I have a copy of his draft card from 1916 or so.
That is a very interesting story. Have you ever been by one of the Mormon genealogical libraries? They might be able to give you suggestions on how to search further using the assumed name.
In addition, I think the Mormons can give you referals to specialists who can be hired. Such people might be familiar with Polish records, and also with Russian, German and Austro Hungarian as Poland was divided amongst these countries, but had degrees of autonomy, prior to WWII.
Try r-e-a-d-i-n-g my post. You dont have alot of knowledge on the subject. As such, you should reduce the sarcasm. I never claimed Catholics were a minority in "Poland". Rather, I said they were a minority in a certain area.
Polish borders have changed many times. After WWI, regions with alot of Ukrainians and Belarusans were given to Poland. And yes.... Catholics (Poles) were a minority in these areas. In 1945, Poland lost these territories to the then USSR and gained German territory in return. Today, these areas are part of Ukraine and Belarus.
There were multiple restrictions placed on Jews to prevent them from competing with Christians in certain trades, and in many lands it included agriculture (which until the early XX century was the main part of economy).
So while there were Jewish farmers and some Jewish agricultural "communes" especially by the end of XIX century, most Jews did not work land. A lot of Jewish "farmers" were actually raising small livestock or worked in support capacity (e.g. millers, iron smiths etc).
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