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The closest the Japanese came to an attack on the mainland US were the plague ballons. They were small baloons which were released high up so they theoretically would drift on the main currents into the northern US, land, spill out their contentes of disease and cause epidemics. The first problem was only one made it that far, the rest drifing off sometime before. It landed in Oregon or Washington and did lead to a casualty as the campers who found it handled the plague filled container inside. But likely it would not have if they hadn't. The second problem was the area they were likely to land is lightly populated and many might end up unfound.
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Plague balloons are hypothesized. TMK, one was never recovered in the US. Explosive balloons, however, were released by Japan. See Japan's World War II Balloon Bomb Attacks
"After some months of media silence while balloons continued to rain (okay, piddle) on the continental United States, one Reverend Archie Mitchell, his wife Elsie, and five children were picnicking in the woods outside of Bly, Oregon when the woman and children happened upon a downed balloon. One of the group tugged on it, and the bomb detonated, killing all of them. The Office of Censorship quickly yanked its decree, and everyone else got warned not to touch strange objects in the woods."
(My emphasis - lots of detail @ the URL)
Japan was trying to cause forest fires in NW US. Unfortunately, as the article points out, the best balloon flying time from Japan to the US was also the rainy season in the NW. & they get lots of rain. But bomb balloons did land all over the US.
Japan was trying to cause forest fires in NW US. Unfortunately, as the article points out, the best balloon flying time from Japan to the US was also the rainy season in the NW. & they get lots of rain. But bomb balloons did land all over the US.
Not sure I understand. You're saying it's unfortunate that the balloons didn't cause a catastrophic fire? That's like saying that the 9/11 attacks should have happened an hour later, to nail more people.
Originally Posted by southwest88 Japan was trying to cause forest fires in NW US. Unfortunately, as the article points out, the best balloon flying time from Japan to the US was also the rainy season in the NW. & they get lots of rain. But bomb balloons did land all over the US.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa
Not sure I understand. You're saying it's unfortunate that the balloons didn't cause a catastrophic fire? That's like saying that the 9/11 attacks should have happened an hour later, to nail more people.
No, it was unfortunate for the Japanese planners that the same winds that would carry their incendiary/explosive devices across the Pacific would also deliver massive amounts of rain to the targeted forests, thus nullifying the point of the incendiary attack.
As I understand it, the hijacking of the 09/11 passenger aircraft depended upon long-haul fully fuelled aircraft, low passenger manifest (& so the flights had to be the first ones out the gate), & passing through passenger control basically @ the hour of the wolf - early morning, before shift change, when everybody's thinking about coffee & breakfast, & suspicions are dulled by hours (indeed, weeks & months) of routine. If those planning criteria were to be met, it wasn't possible to hijack the planes later & then crash them.
As it was, National Command Authority apparently issued shoot-down orders to fighters escorting any airliners not responding to commanded changes in course. Too late, as it turned out. But full marks for the emergency planning - they weren't caught entirely flat-footed.
Note: As an American and a man with basic morals, I am glad Hitler lost. I ask this question only as I have an interest in alternative military scenarios.
The United States was Germany's strongest opponent in WW2. It was also basically the last major player to declare war on Germany. So suppose that Hitler predicted that his plans would ultimately result in eventual war with the United States anyway, so he decides to do things in reverse.
So in the 1930s, before Germany is at war with the UK or the Soviets, before Germany invades Poland and at a time when the axis powers are at the height of their strength, Germany, Italy and Japan launch a suprise war out of no where on the United States.
The air forces of the 3 countries launch a full scale blitzkrieg on the US and the Navies of the 3 land the boots of the Germans, Japanese and Italians on US soil, before the US ever saw it coming.
Meanwhile Hitler renews the offers under the Zimmerman note to Mexico to see if they don't want a piece of the action, only now with a full scale invasion of the US underway, Germany's promises are actually feasable and Mexican military success possible this time around.
And the Axis powers make war on the US until they are a destroyed, smoldering bankrupt mess so that Germany can go back and complete it's goals in Europe (And Japan on the other side of the world) unhindered.
What would have come of such a suprise and full scale invasion of the US by the axis powers? (And possibly Mexico)
They would need a base close enough to North America to stockpile men and supplies to serve as the launching pad for the invasion. The US had the UK for that purpose but the Axis had nothing comparable.
Note: As an American and a man with basic morals, I am glad Hitler lost. I ask this question only as I have an interest in alternative military scenarios.
The United States was Germany's strongest opponent in WW2. It was also basically the last major player to declare war on Germany. So suppose that Hitler predicted that his plans would ultimately result in eventual war with the United States anyway, so he decides to do things in reverse.
So in the 1930s, before Germany is at war with the UK or the Soviets, before Germany invades Poland and at a time when the axis powers are at the height of their strength, Germany, Italy and Japan launch a suprise war out of no where on the United States.
The air forces of the 3 countries launch a full scale blitzkrieg on the US and the Navies of the 3 land the boots of the Germans, Japanese and Italians on US soil, before the US ever saw it coming.
Meanwhile Hitler renews the offers under the Zimmerman note to Mexico to see if they don't want a piece of the action, only now with a full scale invasion of the US underway, Germany's promises are actually feasable and Mexican military success possible this time around.
And the Axis powers make war on the US until they are a destroyed, smoldering bankrupt mess so that Germany can go back and complete it's goals in Europe (And Japan on the other side of the world) unhindered.
What would have come of such a suprise and full scale invasion of the US by the axis powers? (And possibly Mexico)
1. None of those air forces could reach the USA.
2. None of those navies could cross the Atlantic with amphib forces, especially in the 30's when those small brown water navies weren't even up to their eventual still-weak peak.
3. Mexico has always been a military midget and a nonfactor.
1. None of those air forces could reach the USA.
2. None of those navies could cross the Atlantic with amphib forces, especially in the 30's when those small brown water navies weren't even up to their eventual still-weak peak.
3. Mexico has always been a military midget and a nonfactor.
Sorry, your scenario is a big fail.
Yah, IJA & IJN were always weak on logistics - they'd transport troops, weapons & ammo as priority. Food & water were low priority, & first aid/medical care was practically nonexistent (one reason that captured POWs & civilians suffered so much - the Japanese military may have shared their rations as best they could, but there wasn't much to share to begin with. Same for medical care. & in the Philippines, there were a lot of POWs, far more than the IJA had counted on.)
Mexico could have provided manpower in this scenario, but equipment & transportation, arty, armor, etc. would have to have been provided.
It's interesting that the US was at one point unprotected against a Japanese attack on the mainland. I heard that Japan didn't attack because, among other reasons, Americans own gums.
If your armed forces has the logistical wherewithal to mount and exploit an amphibious attack over 5,000 miles of contested ocean, civilians with varmint rifles are not going to be much of a problem.
The US started the war with the world's largest anti-tank trenches between them and the enemy.
Mexico could have provided manpower in this scenario, but equipment & transportation, arty, armor, etc. would have to have been provided.
How an invasion force of a size that would be needed to invade the U.S from Mexico and remain concealed
from every cowboy and sheep herder is simply inconceivable.
How an invasion force of a size that would be needed to invade the U.S from Mexico and remain concealed
from every cowboy and sheep herder is simply inconceivable.
In the 1930s? There weren't any freeways in the US @ that point, to be sure. & even the US highways were pretty spotty, especially along the US/Mexico border. From Del Rio, TX to Yuma, AZ, the border area was very low on road net - remember that air conditioning made the modern US SW population growth possible. So yah, you can move troops on horseback - I don't recall that there was much cattle & sheep near the border - cattle require lots of grass & so do sheep. Cattle in TX would have been in the Hill Country - E. TX; I think the big cattle operations further west in TX came later, as demand ramped up for beef internationally (after WWI) & for domestic consumption in the US NE. Sheep seem to be kinda high-strung - commercial sheepherding seemed to be more upper central US - CO, MT, ID - & to keep them away from people, cars, trains, etc. The Navajo ran sheep, but that was more self-supporting. Cattle were grazed on BLM lands in northern NM. West TX tended to be irrigated crops - mostly cotton @ that time, maybe forage for cattle. (There were cattle dairy herds in West TX up until recently - the danger of disease vectors from Mexico finally caused Ag Dept. to shut them down.)
For arty & ammo, supplies - you'd need transport & a road net. I don't know offhand how extensive the gas stations & oil refineries were @ that point in the US SW - with little auto traffic, I think most freight moved by train. So poor road net, not much fuel nor repair support - even with generous logistic support from Germany (Italy wasn't ready for WWII even in 1939 - Japan had real headaches just supplying their own troops & navy & civilians from the mid 1920s on, as it was), I don't think Mexico could have projected much force very far into the US. (The road net in northern Mexico was also poor @ that time, I believe.)
For that matter, even now there are relatively few big oil refineries in the US - @ CA, TX, LA, Midwest (near Chicago?), NE. & those that exist have relatively old infrastructure. It's probably past time to look @ refurbishing/updating the existing refineries, & in the case of New Orleans, relocating them to better protected (against flooding, hurricanes, etc.) spots - certainly above sea level. Wikipedia notes 137 operating oil refineries in the US, as of Jan. 2015 - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...#United_States
If your armed forces has the logistical wherewithal to mount and exploit an amphibious attack over 5,000 miles of contested ocean, civilians with varmint rifles are not going to be much of a problem.
The US started the war with the world's largest anti-tank trenches between them and the enemy.
"The U.S. started the war"? Not sure I agree.
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Wheels within wheels
