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Old 03-05-2016, 01:20 AM
 
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Even though realistically it wouldn't have been likely to happen wouldn't it had been amazing had the Nazis managed to completely destroy the Soviet/communist savages, had executed Stalin and all of his friends but the west also managed to defeat the equally horrid Nazis? Considering the Soviets and Nazis were both equally savage and lead by equally savage people could you imagine how different and better things would have been had the world been able to enter an age where neither the Nazis nor the Soviets existed? No Nazi Germany nor Soviet Russia, both equally horrible and both equally deserving of extermination.

Imagine had the two worst entities to have ever existed had been deservedly completely eradicated from the planet been completely destroyed how much better for everyone the world would have been!

As evil as the Nazis were and deserved to be destroyed it has always bothered me knowing we had to befriend and make deals with an equally horrid devil to do it. Had both Hitler and Stalin and friends been sent to the deepest pits of hell we could have avoided SO much unneeded despair and bloodshed.
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Old 03-05-2016, 01:23 AM
 
Location: Finland
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Yes. Dreams coming true.
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Old 03-05-2016, 02:26 AM
 
56 posts, read 45,450 times
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Yeah, I just think how amazing it would of been had in an alternate universe the Nazis did manage to defeat the Soviets, capture and execute Stalin and all of the Soviet leadership but the western allies also managed to defeat the Nazis. Destroy two of the worst sub-human leaders and ideologies, Nazism and Communism to ever have existed in one fell swoop.
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Old 03-05-2016, 04:32 AM
 
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The question is, could the war have still been won without the Soviets? From my understanding 8/10 of the Nazi casualties were on the Russian front. Bleeding their best troops and equipment dry. The D-day invasion came as the Soviets were already poised to sweep across Germany. Could we have still pulled off such a large invasion with Germany in a much different position?
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Old 03-05-2016, 06:38 AM
 
Location: Type 0.7 Kardashev
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariez149 View Post
Even though realistically it wouldn't have been likely to happen wouldn't it had been amazing had the Nazis managed to completely destroy the Soviet/communist savages, had executed Stalin and all of his friends but the west also managed to defeat the equally horrid Nazis? Considering the Soviets and Nazis were both equally savage and lead by equally savage people could you imagine how different and better things would have been had the world been able to enter an age where neither the Nazis nor the Soviets existed? No Nazi Germany nor Soviet Russia, both equally horrible and both equally deserving of extermination.
But the two sides weren't equal.

On a morality level, I think it's pointless to try and debate which was worse. But the Allies did not fight the war primarily for moral reasons but for practical reasons. They fought the war because they had determined that it was impossible to live with a Hitler-led Germany because Hitler did not respond to norms of deterrence. Stalin, on the other hand, while no better than Hitler from a moral point of view, did. Hitler was reckless where Stalin was cautious. Hitler was willing to gamble it all, while Stalin always prioritized his personal position and security over conquest. With a big enough stick waved at him, Stalin kept his distance.

Quote:
Imagine had the two worst entities to have ever existed had been deservedly completely eradicated from the planet been completely destroyed how much better for everyone the world would have been!
At first, at least. On the other hand, what would follow? Remember how grand it was going to be when Saddam Hussein was overthrown and Iraq was 'liberated'? There are plenty of people who think life sucks even worse under ISIS, which has exploited the power vacuum left the removal of Saddam Hussein. Unintended consequences.

Now, it's reasonable to say that some peoples - Poles, for all they suffered, and East Germans, for they'd have been taken into the fold of whatever German state the west created post-war, to name two examples - would probably have been better off. On the other hand, the massive chaos to follow the collapse of both states would quite possibly have resulted in a worse historical outcome for some peoples. Russians. Estonians. Georgians. Romanians. Would they all be in better places today? Maybe. Maybe not.

And in the end, communism is all but gone anyway. North Korea must love the fact that Somalia exists, because it's the one country by which Pyongyang looks slightly less bad in comparison. Cuba is barely limping along, and Vietnam and China have economies with enough markets in them to make Marx and Lenin spin in their graves, clinging to communism as little more than a state religion used to justify the oligarchs' rule. All in all, it's not unreasonable to surmise that we - collectively, the world - came through the other side in pretty good shape, all things considered.

And one final note:
We managed to make it through the harrowing Mexican standoff known as the Cold War, learning over several decades how to live with nuclear weapons without hurling thousands of them at each other because someone flinched. That's no small thing. A long-term American monopoly on instant sunshine might not have worked out so well in the long run, regardless of the best of intentions.

I'll take the history we know over very uncertain what-might-have-beens.
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Old 03-05-2016, 12:00 PM
 
Location: southern kansas
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There's a flaw in your 'dream' scenario. If Nazi Germany had defeated the Soviet Union and taken over all of it's vast resources, they would have been much harder to defeat by the Allies. The Soviets were responsible for much of the attrition of German manpower and weaponry. Without that attrition, plus the added manufacturing capability & slave labor available that would be unreachable by Allied strategic bombing, Nazi Germany would have been much more difficult to defeat, perhaps impossible. At the very least, it would have taken years longer and many millions in casualties to achieve.
We may have danced with the devil by being allied with the SU, but it definitely was the lesser of two evils.
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Old 03-05-2016, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Vienna, Austria
403 posts, read 172,503 times
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If the scenario had happened then Nazi Germany and Japan would have united. Soon total Eurasia would have been under the power of Hitler. I doubt the USA and allies could have defeated such enemy with great military and economic potential.

In 1941-1945 the USSR, the USA, England, Australia, Canada were allies and reached the mutual victory.
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Old 03-05-2016, 11:46 PM
 
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The Nazis and Soviet would have defeated themselves anyway by the name of poor economy and people eventual distaste for these governments.
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Old 03-06-2016, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Finally escaped The People's Republic of California
11,110 posts, read 7,353,623 times
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I doubt it would have been wonderful for the people of the Soviet Union...
The Soviets defeated the Nazi's more than the rest of the Allies. How long if ever would it have taken the rest of us to achieve victory? Several more years war wouldn't have been a great thing. In the end 40 years later, the Soviet Union collapsed and disbanded with very minimal bloodshed.....
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Old 03-06-2016, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Type 0.7 Kardashev
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the topper View Post
The Nazis and Soviet would have defeated themselves anyway by the name of poor economy and people eventual distaste for these governments.
'would have'? In the case of the USSR, that is precisely what happened.

As George F. Kennan predicted, the heart of the Soviet system was fundamentally weak. Its economic underpinnings were inherently faulty. And its ruling elite were incapable of rationally assessing the situation both foreign and domestic, thus ensuring that in the long-run they would be incapable of responding to threats to the party's monopoly on power and the Soviet state would collapse. And ultimately that's what happened - once the forces of nationalism were loosed and the veil was lifted slightly on the nature of the system in the mid-1980s, things rapidly spiraled out of control and the Kremlin hadn't the foggiest idea how to deal with it.

We simply waited for the inertia of an illogical socio-economic system to bring itself down.

The Nazis were a different story, not because their economic system was any better but because due to the nature of Adolf Hitler himself, containment was not possible.
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