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Many were outraged at Calley's conviction in fact - then governer Jimmy Carter for one, who supported Calley. Other politicians, mainly southern democrats, also complained. Many citizens disagreed with the verdict - saying it was too lenient, or too hard, or Calley made a scapegoat. There was no consensus. The white house in fact got many telegrams asking for Calley to be released. Before the pardon I think he appealed his sentence, he was released, then put back under house arrest. The pardon by Nixon was "limited" in that his conviction stands but he was released from custody (house arrest, at the time).
My Lai was a terrible event, probably other officers should have been charged and convicted. However, the "other" massacre that occurred in Vietnam during the same period, taking 10 times as many innocent lives, was ignored by the press - Hue. Perhaps because that was committed by Communist, and not US, forces.
Well, duh.
What matters more to you - what your nation does, or what another nation does? For example, suppose an American President defies a lawful Supreme Court order to turn over documents. And suppose, on the same day, the President of Crapholistan orders the leader of the opposition arrested and shot. The latter is more morally egregious, but ultimately it's an issue for the Crapholistanis to resolve. The issue involving the American President is your issue and my issue, as Americans. And I'll bet anything that on the day, you'll be posting about the American President and not about some third world politician who was extrajudicially executed. Or, to look at it another way, what concerns you more - if your child cheats on a high school exam, or if some kid across town knocks over a liquor store? Same answer - the latter may be more of a moral outrage, but the issue of your family - as in our nation - is of far more pressing issue to you. As with me.
When I wore an Army uniform, I was never taught "Do what you want. After all, you can bet the [Soviet/Iranian/fill-in-the-blank] military is doing worse!". The atrocities of the communists is not the baseline by which Americans must behave. No one gets to kill a Vietnamese child and then protest that, hey, the Viet Cong did worse so that means it's no biggie.
The dodge that 'they did it, too' is only relevant to the extent that merely being no worse than than the Viet Cong is all to which you aspire. My Lai was an outrage. If more people spent their more condemning such outrages, and less time running interference for the mass-murdering perpetrators, we'd see fewer such atrocities.
What matters more to you - what your nation does, or what another nation does? For example, suppose an American President defies a lawful Supreme Court order to turn over documents. And suppose, on the same day, the President of Crapholistan orders the leader of the opposition arrested and shot. The latter is more morally egregious, but ultimately it's an issue for the Crapholistanis to resolve. The issue involving the American President is your issue and my issue, as Americans. And I'll bet anything that on the day, you'll be posting about the American President and not about some third world politician who was extrajudicially executed. Or, to look at it another way, what concerns you more - if your child cheats on a high school exam, or if some kid across town knocks over a liquor store? Same answer - the latter may be more of a moral outrage, but the issue of your family - as in our nation - is of far more pressing issue to you. As with me.
When I wore an Army uniform, I was never taught "Do what you want. After all, you can bet the [Soviet/Iranian/fill-in-the-blank] military is doing worse!". The atrocities of the communists is not the baseline by which Americans must behave. No one gets to kill a Vietnamese child and then protest that, hey, the Viet Cong did worse so that means it's no biggie.
The dodge that 'they did it, too' is only relevant to the extent that merely being no worse than than the Viet Cong is all to which you aspire. My Lai was an outrage. If more people spent their more condemning such outrages, and less time running interference for the mass-murdering perpetrators, we'd see fewer such atrocities.
Not sure if you "lecture" should be directed at me since it was not my point. I don't disagree with you. I find it rather pointless that you went into such detail. You got inspired for some pompous speech based on one sentence? What the hell?
The point wasn't that we as American's shouldn't have dwelt on My Lai, the point is that we should not have also ignored Hue to the extent that it was. My premise is that there was a public media agenda at the time - My Lai fit the agenda, Hue did not. And I submit that it was purposely ignored. My Lai indeed is more relevant and got the publicity and moral outrage that it deserved as an American tragedy. That does not mean we should also ignore the atrocities committed by the enemy. Not to the extent of My Lai obviously, but don't ignore it. Being American also mean that that no news should be held from us.
Also I was in Hue last year, so it was personally relevant for me to mention it.
Calley's orders were clearly unlawful and if Medina ordered Calley to kill civilians his orders were invalid for the same reason. Some of the soldiers at My Lai that day figured it out and acted to thwart Calley. The problem is that there weren't enough of them.
Well, if the situation wasn't clear enough for Calley, as a direct result of that incident and its aftermath, everyone in uniform is now given annual mandatory training in the Law of Armed Conflict...to make it clear.
I went through Army Officer Basic in 1976 and our curriculum included how to lead platoon in riot situations and hour after hour on the massacre itself, who did what and when, and ad Infinitum on lawful orders and all that goes with how everyone from private through officers should handle such a situation. So I have no doubt law of armed conflict classes are held. Especially with this current war effort. Another opportunity for stupidity to reign
I always figured there'd never be a worse president than Nixon - but then along came George W. Bush.
God knows that I'm no fan of George W. Bush, but even Bush 43 can come close to the criminality of Richard Nixon. Frankly (god I over use that) My Lai and the pardon of Calley are just side stories to Nixon's abuses. The targeting of American citizens for merely criticizing the President of the United States and using the full power of the Presidency to bear was unprecedented by an American president.
I maintain they were quite different. Enumerate another pacification operation where an officer forced 22 civilians into a ditch and shot them at point blank range. Name another situation where an officer deliberately held up a baby and shot it in the head.
You weren't there, were you? My Lai was really pretty minor compared to the wholesale slaughter the US committed.
Sorry, Dd…
Yes I did. Hue was ignored, and it was bad. There were many terrible massacres and events that were ignored in Viet Nam....
Another example is the Dak Son Massacre. On December 5, 1967, two battalions of Viet Cong systematically killed 252 civilians in a "vengeance" attack. Flamethrowers were used to incinerate the men, women, and children as they huddled in their shelters. Then the VC shot 60 of the 160 who had survived the assault, and marched the rest off as prisoners. Whatever homes remained were destroyed by grenades. This was not an isolated incident. A common tactic of the NVA/VC was to slaughter South Vietnamese villagers to show them that the government of SVN could not protect them. VC death squads focused on village leaders, medical personnel, social workers, civil engineers, and schoolteachers. NVA/VC routinely tortured and killed US wounded, notably after the battle of Ia Drang. Atrocities were standard policy, and not punished by Hanoi. In contrast, during the Vietnam War, American military authorities convicted 201 U.S. soldiers and 77 Marines of serious crimes against the Vietnamese.
When I took a college course on the Vietnam War in the mid-1980's, the only atrocities our Professor discussed were the ones perpetrated by US forces. He vehemently denied that the Communist's committed any atrocities at all, claiming this was "American propaganda". I was shouted down by other students when I mentioned Hue. Several classes later, we were watching a video episode of the PBS series "Vietnam: A Television History", based on the book by Stanley Karnow. When the program showed the bodies of the victims of the Hue Massacre being pulled out of the lime pits where they had been dumped by the VC and NVA, the Professor hurriedly switched off the VCR and dismissed the class.
Another example is the Dak Son Massacre. On December 5, 1967, two battalions of Viet Cong systematically killed 252 civilians in a "vengeance" attack. Flamethrowers were used to incinerate the men, women, and children as they huddled in their shelters. Then the VC shot 60 of the 160 who had survived the assault, and marched the rest off as prisoners. Whatever homes remained were destroyed by grenades. This was not an isolated incident. A common tactic of the NVA/VC was to slaughter South Vietnamese villagers to show them that the government of SVN could not protect them. VC death squads focused on village leaders, medical personnel, social workers, civil engineers, and schoolteachers. NVA/VC routinely tortured and killed US wounded, notably after the battle of Ia Drang. Atrocities were standard policy, and not punished by Hanoi. In contrast, during the Vietnam War, American military authorities convicted 201 U.S. soldiers and 77 Marines of serious crimes against the Vietnamese.
When I took a college course on the Vietnam War in the mid-1980's, the only atrocities our Professor discussed were the ones perpetrated by US forces. He vehemently denied that the Communist's committed any atrocities at all, claiming this was "American propaganda". I was shouted down by other students when I mentioned Hue and the massacre that occured. Several classes later, we were watching a video episode of the PBS series "Vietnam: A Television History", based on the book by Stanley Karnow. When the program showed the bodies of the victims of the Hue Massacre being pulled out of the lime pits where they had been dumped by the VC and NVA, the Professor hurriedly switched off the VCR and dismissed the class.
The bad thing is, as many proclaimed to not know about Hue - the US press, anti-war activists, even our own government. The people of Vietnam knew exactly what happened, word spread fast. It was no secret to them that NVA killed up to 6,000 south Vietnamese civilians - usually by burying them alive. They knew.
In 1975 North Vietnam advanced on Saigon and South Vietnam fell and you had almost 1 million South Vietnamese take to boats, anything that would float - dingys, rubber boats, bath tubs, hopelessly overcrowded barely sea worth vessels, anything and everything, into the South China Sea to escape advancing NVA and what they thought would be another wholesale massacre. Many ended up drowning at sea.
Today in Vietnam, the Peoples Republic of, they don't teach or talk about any communist massacre in Hue obviously. I was in the citadel in Hue and a European in our group comes up to me and asks me "why did Americans kill so many people here". I pointed at our Vietnamese tour guy and said "this guy isn't allowed to talk about it, he will probably end up in jail" and gave him the real history of the battle of Hue and the massacre. During that battle - we weren't even allowed to use indirect fire artillery because of "rules of engagement". Marines took Hue back through house to house fighting, and took heavy casualties.
Charlie - he didn't have any rules of engagement.
Last edited by mensaguy; 04-18-2016 at 03:59 AM..
Reason: proof...... Mod: Don't circumvent the profanity filter.
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