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Millions of German refugees fled for the lines of the Western Allies in the face of the Red Army's advance. They knew.
Hundreds of thousands of Wehrmacht soldiers, who did virtually anything to avoid surrendering to the Russians, happily laid down their arms in the West. They knew.
Albert Speer made sure his family made it to the West. He knew.
Martin Bormann sent his family to reach Allied lines in Italy. He knew.
Hermann Goering made sure his wife and daughter were in territory occupied by the Western Allies. He knew.
Heinrich Himmler, a doting father to daughter Gudrun who often brought her with him on official business, saw to it that his family reached American forces in Italy. He knew.
But somehow, this was all a big secret to Magda... who just had to off five children because she didn't know with millions of refugees, hundreds of thousands of soldiers, and every other high-ranking Nazi leader knew.
No she didn't know. How could she have known where her children were going to end up? All it would have taken was a few sadistic allied soldiers to have tortured and killed them. There were plenty of Germans who didn't know what to expect and committed suicide. All those people that you mentioned didn't know, they just took a chance at there descendants being safer under the allies. Don't forget the Morgenthau Plan which was meant to exterminate millions of Germans and which the allies were putting into effect by destroying all factories and any means for the German population had for survival. Furthermore no one knew at that point how far the Soviets would advance.
No she didn't know. How could she have known where her children were going to end up? All it would have taken was a few sadistic allied soldiers to have tortured and killed them. There were plenty of Germans who didn't know what to expect and committed suicide. All those people that you mentioned didn't know, they just took a chance at there descendants being safer under the allies. Don't forget the Morgenthau Plan which was meant to exterminate millions of Germans and which the allies were putting into effect by destroying all factories and any means for the German population had for survival. Furthermore no one knew at that point how far the Soviets would advance.
Though implemented to an extent the Morgenthau plan soon witnessed backsliding and abandonment by the USA and other Allies. Persons both military and politics saw the thing for what it was; a plan hatched by a Jew to decimate Germany and reduce her citizens to near penury status. Problem is the world had already seen such a thing (the Treaty of Versailles), and knew how that worked out in the end.
Both German military and civilians were putting up strong resistance even when it was clear all was lost; costing American/Allied military much in funds and men; all this because they had already known the Treaty of Versailles, and believed the propaganda put out by Goebbeds that the Morgenthau plan was more of the same if not worse, and that it was coming from an American Jew determined to get some of his own back for his people.
Since unification Germany was then and still is the manufacturing/economic power house of Europe. Take it out of the equation and the pain spreads not only to that continent but across the world including the USA as well.
To be sure the USA and Allies got much use out of the scheme; German manufacturing was dismantled and sent out of the country, patents/intellectual property sized, 50K or more German POWs and others were used by the Allies as forced labor.
The great post-war food shortage in Germany and Europe also acted as a break to the MP along with the beginning of the Cold War. Last thing anyone in the USA or Europe wanted as greater expansion of the Soviet Union and its polices across western Europe. But that could easily have happened with a German populace beat down, starving and otherwise unhappy with how they were being treated by the Americans/French, etc....
Though implemented to an extent the Morgenthau plan soon witnessed backsliding and abandonment by the USA and other Allies. Persons both military and politics saw the thing for what it was; a plan hatched by a Jew to decimate Germany and reduce her citizens to near penury status. Problem is the world had already seen such a thing (the Treaty of Versailles), and knew how that worked out in the end.
Considering the Morgenthau Plan: Once I read that Stalin had a message for the west Germans that read "all you have to do is be good communists and we will not kill you". Before Stalin could send the message American intelligence intercepted it and gave an order to all U.S. troops from the highest command that read: "hands of Germans". At that point we eased up on carrying out the Morgenthau Plan. If the message would have gone through to the west Germans and we would have kept pressing them they may have gone into the Soviet orbit, as a last resort for their survival. If that would have happened the German army would have been resurrected as a part of the Soviet army and it would have happened very fast. Then the allies would have been in real trouble because there is no way the allies could have defended against both the Russian and German armies. We had enough trouble fighting the Germans when the German army in the west was Hitler's youth fighting. The average age of the fighting German in the west was 19 years old So many of those young soldiers were as young as 15 and 16. Imagine if the allies tried to stop the experienced Soviet and German soldiers who had fought on the eastern front for about 5 years.
As a side note: When talking to WW2 vets over the years many of them mentioned the "hands of Germans' order and they never knew why it happened etc. When I told one of them what I wrote above he responded in a very surprised manner and said so thats where that order came from. He never knew after all those years but always wondered.
Considering the Morgenthau Plan: Once I read that Stalin had a message for the west Germans that read "all you have to do is be good communists and we will not kill you". Before Stalin could send the message American intelligence intercepted it and gave an order to all U.S. troops from the highest command that read: "hands of Germans". At that point we eased up on carrying out the Morgenthau Plan. If the message would have gone through to the west Germans and we would have kept pressing them they may have gone into the Soviet orbit, as a last resort for their survival. If that would have happened the German army would have been resurrected as a part of the Soviet army and it would have happened very fast. Then the allies would have been in real trouble because there is no way the allies could have defended against both the Russian and German armies. We had enough trouble fighting the Germans when the German army in the west was Hitler's youth fighting. The average age of the fighting German in the west was 19 years old So many of those young soldiers were as young as 15 and 16. Imagine if the allies tried to stop the experienced Soviet and German soldiers who had fought on the eastern front for about 5 years.
As a side note: When talking to WW2 vets over the years many of them mentioned the "hands of Germans' order and they never knew why it happened etc. When I told one of them what I wrote above he responded in a very surprised manner and said so thats where that order came from. He never knew after all those years but always wondered.
You are very willingly treading into "stormfront" territory with your posts in this thread. Put down the ultra right-wing propaganda and anti-semitism.
The Morgenthau Plan certainly had some influence on post-war policy, but it was never implemented as written and was never designed to "exterminate" Germans or gain "revenge for the Jews". There was a raging debate among the allies about how to treat post-war Germany and rightfully so. No matter how one breaks it down (and some bad things certainly happened) the allies treated Germany far better in defeat than what the allies could have expected from Germany if the shoe were on the other foot.
The ridiculous "poor Germany" arguments for what happened in the closing phases and immediate post-war period are nothing but thinly veiled attempts to justify neo-Nazi ideology and revisionism.
As for whether or not Magda did the "right thing"...who cares.
No she didn't know. How could she have known where her children were going to end up? All it would have taken was a few sadistic allied soldiers to have tortured and killed them. There were plenty of Germans who didn't know what to expect and committed suicide. All those people that you mentioned didn't know, they just took a chance at there descendants being safer under the allies. Don't forget the Morgenthau Plan which was meant to exterminate millions of Germans and which the allies were putting into effect by destroying all factories and any means for the German population had for survival. Furthermore no one knew at that point how far the Soviets would advance.
Isn't that the reality for any mother -- or any father -- anywhere? Consider that thousands of children and/or teenagers die or go missing daily in this country. Many children go out to play and somehow never make it back home safe because of an accident or health emergency or foul play. Should all parents kill their kids to keep them "safe" from uncertain fates?
Magda Goebbels was like a family annihilator. She chose to ignore opportunities to get her children to safety because of her sick view of the world and her role in it. Apparently, only life lived among the glories of the Third Reich was worth living.
It had been clear that the war was lost for some time. Other German politicians and officers did relocate their families to areas less likely to be overrun by Soviet troops. Goebbels could have as well - arguing that it was too late to do so, without potentially subjecting them to an even worse fate, ignores that there was plenty of time to do so beforehand. Joseph was a "rat in a trap" with no escape, but Magda and her kids were not. That she stayed and willingly sacrificed her children can only be evidence of her fanatical blindness.
You are very willingly treading into "stormfront" territory with your posts in this thread. Put down the ultra right-wing propaganda and anti-semitism.
The Morgenthau Plan certainly had some influence on post-war policy, but it was never implemented as written and was never designed to "exterminate" Germans or gain "revenge for the Jews". There was a raging debate among the allies about how to treat post-war Germany and rightfully so. No matter how one breaks it down (and some bad things certainly happened) the allies treated Germany far better in defeat than what the allies could have expected from Germany if the shoe were on the other foot.
The ridiculous "poor Germany" arguments for what happened in the closing phases and immediate post-war period are nothing but thinly veiled attempts to justify neo-Nazi ideology and revisionism.
As for whether or not Magda did the "right thing"...who cares.
? How am I treading into Stormfront territory? I didn't say anything about jews as you claim and gave no post on this thread of any right wing propaganda. If Morgenthau was a jew that isn't my fault. Fact is the Morgenthau Plan was a vicious, evil plan to reduce the German population by millions through starvation and other means. Not my fault that Morgenthau thought that plan up and then tried to have it implemented. What you are doing is trying to make me look morally wrong for even mentioning the Morgenthau Plan since Morgenthau was a jew and therefore I am anti semitic for mentioning it. It seems that you are sensitive to the jewish part in that plan as it might make the jews look evil in their intentions. Since you forced this topic into a morally right or wrong argument I will mention the book by Theodore Kaufman entitled 'Germany Must Perish' where the author advocates the genocide of Germans through sterilization and other means. Again, it isn't my fault that Kaufman is a jew and wants revenge on the Germans. So I am a terrible, anti-semitic person for mentioning it I suppose. Get your screwed on straight.
? How am I treading into Stormfront territory? I didn't say anything about jews as you claim and gave no post on this thread of any right wing propaganda. If Morgenthau was a jew that isn't my fault. Fact is the Morgenthau Plan was a vicious, evil plan to reduce the German population by millions through starvation and other means. Not my fault that Morgenthau thought that plan up and then tried to have it implemented. What you are doing is trying to make me look morally wrong for even mentioning the Morgenthau Plan since Morgenthau was a jew and therefore I am anti semitic for mentioning it. It seems that you are sensitive to the jewish part in that plan as it might make the jews look evil in their intentions. Since you forced this topic into a morally right or wrong argument I will mention the book by Theodore Kaufman entitled 'Germany Must Perish' where the author advocates the genocide of Germans through sterilization and other means. Again, it isn't my fault that Kaufman is a jew and wants revenge on the Germans. So I am a terrible, anti-semitic person for mentioning it I suppose. Get your screwed on straight.
Sensitive over being called out? The issue is that you are repeating, whether you even know it or not, arguments frequently parroted by right-wing groups (such as those who love stormfront) about US post-war policy. You even state that the US implemented the Morgenthau Plan which you decry as essentially a device of "Jewish vengeance", but that is patently false. The Morgenthau Plan was not implemented though portions of it and multiple other plans and opinions among the allies helped shape post-war policy.
Additionally, the Morgenthau Plan did not call for "reduction of the German population by millions", but it was very clear about reducing Germany to a light industry and agricultural state. That view was not unique to Morgenthau nor was it unique to people of Jewish heritage. There was a very vocal element that believed that Germany should be "laid low" for starting two world wars that cost millions of lives in the span of 30 years. The only reversal of the reduction of Germany came when it was realized that German industrial might was critical to the wider European recovery and a strong Western Germany was necessary as a buffer against the Soviet Union. As for intellectual properties, industries, etc. being removed...what do you think the Germans did in the territories they occupied?
Let's take two other points you have raised and show how those prove your proclivity to the "stormfront" mindset:
1. Kaufman was a lunatic, no one would deny that. He self-published a book calling for the elimination of Germans in 1941. In 1939 he published a book calling for the sterilization of all Americans so their children could no longer be forced to fight in foreign wars. You're acting as if the ramblings of a lunatic stand for official policy of the US or of "Jews" (as if they were some singular body/state). That the book was used as Nazi propaganda is most likely how you have heard of it. It, along with the "Judea Declares War on Germany" farce are often cited by Nazi apologists.
2. The "Hands off Germans" order never existed. It is completely made up and the only source for it come from various right wing websites and forums. That you would mention it and talk about it is definitive proof of where you like to do your research and get your information.
I would suggest you leave the sewer of the internet you have been trolling in and crack open some actual books and educate yourself.
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How am I treading into Stormfront territory? I didn't say anything about jews as you claim and gave no post on this thread of any right wing propaganda. If Morgenthau was a jew that isn't my fault. Fact is the Morgenthau Plan was a vicious, evil plan to reduce the German population by millions through starvation and other means. Not my fault that Morgenthau thought that plan up and then tried to have it implemented. What you are doing is trying to make me look morally wrong for even mentioning the Morgenthau Plan since Morgenthau was a jew and therefore I am anti semitic for mentioning it. It seems that you are sensitive to the jewish part in that plan as it might make the jews look evil in their intentions. Since you forced this topic into a morally right or wrong argument I will mention the book by Theodore Kaufman entitled 'Germany Must Perish' where the author advocates the genocide of Germans through sterilization and other means. Again, it isn't my fault that Kaufman is a jew and wants revenge on the Germans. So I am a terrible, anti-semitic person for mentioning it I suppose. Get your screwed on straight.
