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My dad was stationed at Fort Richardson, Alaska in 1941. He said after December 7th the West Coast was so open to invasion that the Canadian Army shifted several hundred thousand of their troops into the BC area.
While it is true that there was fear that the Japanese would threaten CONUS, in fact they never had the capability. Just striking Hawaii and seizing a couple of small and barren Aleutian Islands one thousand miles from mainland Alaska stretched them to the limits of their logistical tether. And they absolutely did not have the troops to spare.
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Originally Posted by snj90
For the benefit of the Japanese. In turn, Hitler was counting on the Japanese to invade the ussr.
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Originally Posted by OpanaPointer
I doubt Hitler had such a motive.
Right.
Hitler had hoped for war between the USSR and Japan, but after those two countries concluded a neutrality pact in April 1941 - long before Pearl Harbor and the subsequent German declaration of War on the United States - he had accepted that it would not happen.
Part of Hitler's calculation was to encourage Japanese action, assuming that if the United States found itself involved in both the European and Pacific Wars, Japan - knowing that the U.S. was splitting its resources between the two theaters - would be freer to act. Specifically, he wanted Japan to attack and take Singapore. Hitler felt that once that happened, India would be in peril, and that Britain, faced with losing India or agreeing to terms with Germany, would choose the latter. Of course, he was wrong. Singapore fell, India did not, and Britain never choose one over the other (defending India v. continuing the war with Germany).
Interesting that both Germany and Japan seemed to think that if they inflicted enough pain early on in the war, that Britain and/or the US would go for a negotiated settlement. I would think the example of WWI, only a few years earlier, would be just one reason to think this is a flawed strategy.
Interesting that both Germany and Japan seemed to think that if they inflicted enough pain early on in the war, that Britain and/or the US would go for a negotiated settlement. I would think the example of WWI, only a few years earlier, would be just one reason to think this is a flawed strategy.
I did a study on the reasons the Kaiser and Herr Schickelgruber decided to go to war with the US. In both cases they had rationalized the decision by declaring that they could beat all their current enemies before the US could make our weight felt.
I did a study on the reasons the Kaiser and Herr Schickelgruber decided to go to war with the US. In both cases they had rationalized the decision by declaring that they could beat all their current enemies before the US could make our weight felt.
Did it seem to you that they really thought this, or just wishful thinking? Of course you said they were "rationalizing" so maybe there is my answer.
What kills me about this is even if for whatever reason Britain and the USSR both went for negotiated settlements in 1942, and even with Japan is doing all it could, (and I think they did, in reality), I don't see a success path for Germany, unless the US just got tired of fighting.
Although, as usual "what if" is more complicated than it first appears. If Britain and the USSR had negotiated settlements, that would have taken some of the reasons the US had for participating off the table...
Did it seem to you that they really thought this, or just wishful thinking? Of course you said they were "rationalizing" so maybe there is my answer.
Hitler's decision was solo, the German General Staff provided input to the Kaiser and his cabinet, which meant the GGS decided.
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What kills me about this is even if for whatever reason Britain and the USSR both went for negotiated settlements in 1942, and even with Japan is doing all it could, (and I think they did, in reality), I don't see a success path for Germany, unless the US just got tired of fighting.
Although, as usual "what if" is more complicated than it first appears. If Britain and the USSR had negotiated settlements, that would have taken some of the reasons the US had for participating off the table...
Germany declared war on us. Hitler would have to find a way out of that.
The authors of Shattered Sword note that if the Japanese had won at Midway they would have still lost the war, and that if the US had lost at Midway they would have still won the war.
Hitler amazes me sometimes:
Germany, population ~80,000,000
US + USSR, population ~310,000,000. When the UK and Commonwealth are added, plus all the other nations that joined the UN, the odds were worse than 5 to 1 against Germany.
When Germany declared war on the U.S., the UK was virtually knocked out of the war and bankrupt. The USSR appeared to be on the brink of collapse with German troops at the gates of Moscow and Leningrad. The U.S. Army was small and weak, and rebuilding. We were still 2 years away from sending armies overseas. Hitler knew this, and bet that he would defeat the USSR before U.S. forces could become a threat. Germany was already at war basically with the U.S. in the Atlantic. So Hitler's decision to declare war on the U.S. was not all that crazy.
There's lots of talk about endless UK/Commonwealth manpower, but in reality the British only fielded 5 million troops throughout WW2. That is smaller than the Austro-Hungarian army in WW1. Further, the British did not have enough tanks, planes, or equipment to supply such a large army until U.S. aide escalated later in the war. Aside from smaller campaigns in N. Africa and the Middle East, the British forces were mostly stuck in Britain until D-Day. This idea that they could field 50 million troops is pure fantasy.
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