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Old 08-13-2016, 10:17 PM
 
Location: Stuart, FL
207 posts, read 491,771 times
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If Ilkhanate under Ghazan never converted to Islam and the empire remained Buddhist and Shamanistic even after Ghazan’s death and managed to successfully convert the local population to Buddhism and Shamanism, how would this different would the world be today?

EDIT: I forgot to mention that yes, most of the middle east and Central Asia were predominantly Islam prior to Ghengis Khan's arrival, but it took 300+ years to convert nearly all of the Persian population from Zoroastrianism to Islam. Same goes with the Central Asians going from Tengrism to Islam.

It's not like the Muslims were incapable of being converted to another religion. With that being said, had the Mongols, especially Ilkhanate had remained Buddhist and Shamanistic and managed to successfully convert the local population from Islam to Buddhism or Shamanism, what would the world look and be like today?

How different would Iran and Central Asia look like in contrast to what they look and are like now?

Last edited by Aethalstad; 08-13-2016 at 10:31 PM..
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Old 08-13-2016, 11:22 PM
 
26,750 posts, read 22,271,337 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aethalstad View Post
If Ilkhanate under Ghazan never converted to Islam and the empire remained Buddhist and Shamanistic even after Ghazan’s death and managed to successfully convert the local population to Buddhism and Shamanism, how would this different would the world be today?

EDIT: I forgot to mention that yes, most of the middle east and Central Asia were predominantly Islam prior to Ghengis Khan's arrival, but it took 300+ years to convert nearly all of the Persian population from Zoroastrianism to Islam. Same goes with the Central Asians going from Tengrism to Islam.

It's not like the Muslims were incapable of being converted to another religion. With that being said, had the Mongols, especially Ilkhanate had remained Buddhist and Shamanistic and managed to successfully convert the local population from Islam to Buddhism or Shamanism, what would the world look and be like today?

How different would Iran and Central Asia look like in contrast to what they look and are like now?
Persia has been converted to Islam by ARABS, not "Ilkhanate" and that's what really matters.
Overall when you look for the most violent places in terms of radical Islam, it's where Arabs set their foot to, not "Ilkhanate." Russians could handle "Ilkhahanate" ( Central Asia that is,) in terms of containing Islam and integrating its population just fine; it's CAUCASUS ( Northern Caucasus to be precise) where they've always had problems. And Caucasus was submitted under Islam yet again by Arabs.
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Old 08-13-2016, 11:45 PM
 
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Such a shame that Persia converted to Islam. Zoroastrianism was a fine religion.
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Old 08-13-2016, 11:48 PM
 
26,750 posts, read 22,271,337 times
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Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
Such a shame that Persia converted to Islam. Zoroastrianism was a fine religion.
Yes, predecessor of Christianity.
Persians were forced to abandon it.
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Old 08-14-2016, 10:02 PM
 
Location: Stuart, FL
207 posts, read 491,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
Such a shame that Persia converted to Islam. Zoroastrianism was a fine religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Yes, predecessor of Christianity.
Persians were forced to abandon it.

Not all Persians have, in fact there is a good portion of them in Iran to this day and they are recognized by the Iranian govt. They are called the Parsi.

However, it's because Iran is an islamic theocracy is the reason why they are still being persecuted by Muslims.

There are still plenty in India. Guarantee you once Iran becomes a democracy, you will see a large Zoroastrian minority rise via conversions.

However, we are getting off topic. Can anyone answer my question at all?
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Old 08-14-2016, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Stuart, FL
207 posts, read 491,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Persia has been converted to Islam by ARABS, not "Ilkhanate" and that's what really matters.
Overall when you look for the most violent places in terms of radical Islam, it's where Arabs set their foot to, not "Ilkhanate." Russians could handle "Ilkhahanate" ( Central Asia that is,) in terms of containing Islam and integrating its population just fine; it's CAUCASUS ( Northern Caucasus to be precise) where they've always had problems. And Caucasus was submitted under Islam yet again by Arabs.
Russia entered Central Asia and the Caucasus centuries after the Mongol Empire and the four Khanates that consisted of it (Yuan Dynasty, Chagatai Khanate, Ilkhanate and Golden Horde) fell apart. So I don't know what Russia has anything to do with this question.

Yes, I understand that Persia was converted to Islam by Arabs, but it took the Arabs a while to convert most of them. The Arabs also converted Central Asians to Islam as well.

Centuries later, the Mongols came and imposed their religions on the Central Asian and Persian populace. Those religions being Buddhism and Shamanism.

What my question was and still is if the Mongol Ilkhanate of Persia never converted to Islam instead remained Buddhist and Shamanist and managed to successfully convert the Persian population to Buddhism and Shamanism, what would the world be like today?
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Old 08-14-2016, 11:59 PM
 
26,750 posts, read 22,271,337 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aethalstad View Post
Russia entered Central Asia and the Caucasus centuries after the Mongol Empire and the four Khanates that consisted of it (Yuan Dynasty, Chagatai Khanate, Ilkhanate and Golden Horde) fell apart. So I don't know what Russia has anything to do with this question.
Because if you look at Ilkhanat, even IT included part of lands Russians had to deal with later on in history, although granted - their biggest pain in the neck ( and later victory) was the Golden Horde out of all four.

"At its greatest extent, the state expanded into territories that today comprise most of Iran, Iraq, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Turkmenistan, Turkey, western Afghanistan, and southwestern Pakistan."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilkhanate

Russians overall had to deal with the consequences of Islamic takeover of those regions historically speaking, that's why I am answering "what would the world be like" if those areas wouldn't have been taken over by Asians, converted to Islam.
So what I am trying to explain to you, it wouldn't have changed anything much, because those Asian (originally Mongolian) tribes overrun and took over the territories, whose original cultures were ALREADY DESTROYED and CONVERTED TO ISLAM BY ARABS BEFORE them.
That's why it was not making too much difference.

Quote:
Yes, I understand that Persia was converted to Islam by Arabs, but it took the Arabs a while to convert most of them.
So there you go. Arabs already did their destructive job, so who cares if Persian territories were overrun by Islamic Asian tribes later on.


Quote:
The Arabs also converted Central Asians to Islam as well.
Central Asia IS former part of Persia ( well big part of it.)
Tadjikistan, Uzbekistan - those are big parts of what's known as "Central Asia" - they are former territories of Persia.
There is a reason you see, why part of their population look Asiatic and part does not exactly.

http://ancientpersia.weebly.com/uplo...804182.jpg?783

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9liDDeOe4Q...0/Picture1.jpg



Quote:
What my question was and still is if the Mongol Ilkhanate of Persia never converted to Islam instead remained Buddhist and Shamanist and managed to successfully convert the Persian population to Buddhism and Shamanism, what would the world be like today?

As I've said - there wouldn't have been too much difference already, since shamanism and what's not cultures were less advanced than original culture of the area.
Now if PERSIA would have never been overrun by Arabs and submitted under Islam at the first place, THEN yes, the world today could have been very, very different.
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Old 08-15-2016, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
2,817 posts, read 2,114,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aethalstad View Post
If Ilkhanate under Ghazan never converted to Islam and the empire remained Buddhist and Shamanistic even after Ghazan’s death and managed to successfully convert the local population to Buddhism and Shamanism, how would this different would the world be today?

EDIT: I forgot to mention that yes, most of the middle east and Central Asia were predominantly Islam prior to Ghengis Khan's arrival, but it took 300+ years to convert nearly all of the Persian population from Zoroastrianism to Islam. Same goes with the Central Asians going from Tengrism to Islam.

It's not like the Muslims were incapable of being converted to another religion. With that being said, had the Mongols, especially Ilkhanate had remained Buddhist and Shamanistic and managed to successfully convert the local population from Islam to Buddhism or Shamanism, what would the world look and be like today?

How different would Iran and Central Asia look like in contrast to what they look and are like now?
I don't find your hypothetical to be very plausible.
I cannot think of an example where a Muslim population were converted to another religion. Spain after the reconquest is the only possibility. Nor can I think of an example where entire peoples abandoned their Abrahamic monotheistic religion for Buddhism or Shamanism. The conversions usually go in the other direction.
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Old 08-15-2016, 11:41 AM
 
Location: Stuart, FL
207 posts, read 491,771 times
Reputation: 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkwensky View Post
I don't find your hypothetical to be very plausible.
I cannot think of an example where a Muslim population were converted to another religion. Spain after the reconquest is the only possibility. Nor can I think of an example where entire peoples abandoned their Abrahamic monotheistic religion for Buddhism or Shamanism. The conversions usually go in the other direction.
It's not like the Muslims were incapable of being converted to another religion. There were plenty that converted to Hinduisim as there were vice versa.
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Old 08-15-2016, 01:04 PM
 
26,750 posts, read 22,271,337 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aethalstad View Post
It's not like the Muslims were incapable of being converted to another religion. There were plenty that converted to Hinduisim as there were vice versa.
This would be a good reading on a subject; - "Apostasy in Islam"


"Until the late 1800s, the vast majority of Islamic scholars in Madh'hab (Sunni) and Imamah (Shia) schools of jurisprudence held that for adult men, apostasy in Islam was a crime as well as a sin, an act of treason punishable with the death penalty,[5][12] typically after a waiting period to allow the apostate time to repent and return to Islam.[5][13][14][15] The kind of apostasy generally deemed to be punishable by the jurists was of the political kind, although there were considerable legal differences of opinion on this matter.[16] Wael Hallaq states that "[in] a culture whose lynchpin is religion, religious principles and religious morality, apostasy is in some way equivalent to high treason in the modern nation-state."[17] In the late 1800s, the use of criminal penalties for apostasy fell into disuse, although civil penalties were still applied.[5]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

See, if Islam is only TAKING a foothold in a society, the switching back and forth is still possible, but once Islam is firmly established, *be beware* of any further conversions.
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