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Old 01-01-2019, 06:55 AM
 
952 posts, read 256,755 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joao View Post

Ironically again, what began with Americans settling in then Mexican lands has reversed back. Texas, California and New Mexico are becoming ethnically Mexican again:
Sort of. Those lands were largely uninhabited before the Mexican War (with just small Mexican and indigenous populations), so it's not the same situation as today.
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Old 01-01-2019, 08:07 AM
 
Location: 912 feet above sea level
1,822 posts, read 658,626 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astral_Weeks View Post
Where did I ever say the U.S. should give back land to Mexico? I agree with the bolded part above except the U.S. did steal the land just like the Mexico stole it from Spain and Spain appropriated it from the Native Americans, etc.

Stealing land or conquest is no doubt a part of human history. Simply recognizing that Country A took advantage of Country B does NOT mean you have to believe Country A should give back land to Country B 150 years later.

I mentioned Mexicans "voting with their feet" to point out the corruption and poor governance that Mexico has suffered from (and is a reason Mexicans have immigrated to the U.S.).

I do NOT think the U.S. should give back the land we stole to Mexico. But I am also not for white washing history. Let's call a spade a spade.
Nope, we can't do that. It triggers the snowflakes.
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Old 01-01-2019, 09:38 AM
 
9,671 posts, read 3,262,356 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astral_Weeks View Post
Where did I ever say the U.S. should give back land to Mexico? I agree with the bolded part above except the U.S. did steal the land just like the Mexico stole it from Spain and Spain appropriated it from the Native Americans, etc.

Stealing land or conquest is no doubt a part of human history. Simply recognizing that Country A took advantage of Country B does NOT mean you have to believe Country A should give back land to Country B 150 years later.

I mentioned Mexicans "voting with their feet" to point out the corruption and poor governance that Mexico has suffered from (and is a reason Mexicans have immigrated to the U.S.).

I do NOT think the U.S. should give back the land we stole to Mexico. But I am also not for white washing history. Let's call a spade a spade.

I never mention giving the lands back because that would be a sillier idea.

Mexico lost those lands by war and because Mexico couldn't pay their debts and claims against the Mexican government and sold those lands for money. Nobody forced the Mexican dictator and his army to cross the Rio Grande to kill civilians and destroy and burn villages.
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Old 01-01-2019, 02:13 PM
 
Location: Round Rock, Texas
7,981 posts, read 7,976,886 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellion1999 View Post
Return California to the dumped waste of corruption they call Mexico? what a silly idea.....while you are at it, let's return Alaska back to Russia. Louisiana and the other states back to France. Florida back to Spain, Hawaii back to a minority tribe. Hell! let's give back the original 13 colonies back to the British.


I love the history-social warriors trying to "fix" history.
You should tap your humor detection meter, it seems to be stuck in the “off” position. Or you just missed the in my post.
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Old 01-01-2019, 02:26 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
37,912 posts, read 17,773,751 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoPro View Post

However, they have no claim whatsoever against Texas since our successful revolution was instigated by by expat American colonists turned Mexican citizens who were invited here, plus a substantial portion of the native born Tejanos.
Actually the above is not completely true. The majority of those who died at the Alamo, and Goliad, and triumphed at San Jacinto, had been in Texas for three or four months. They came in response to the Texians' pleas for assistance in their rebellion. 640 acres of land was offered to all those who came and took up arms. David Crockett is the most famous example, he didn't arrive in Texas until February of 1836.

Most of those warriors did not fall under the "invited to come" class. Invitation immigration ended in 1830 when Mexican president Anastasio Bustamente declared the Law of April 6th, which placed a complete ban on future immigration from the US, as well raising taxes and repeating the ban on slavery. All US immigrants who came after that date were illegal, and that was most of the population.
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Old 01-01-2019, 02:38 PM
 
9,671 posts, read 3,262,356 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoPro View Post
You should tap your humor detection meter, it seems to be stuck in the “off” position. Or you just missed the in my post.

actually, my humor meter is fine.....that's the only way you could laugh on the accusations of "stealing" land you read here.


Fact is Mexico lost those lands for incompetence and corruption. When Spain had those lands that are U.S. States today they managed it fine by paying tribes and putting presidios to keep the peace and order. When Mexico declared their independence from Spain, they were so weak and divided in civil wars that they totally ignored those lands. That's when the Comanches, Navajos and Apache raided, killed and stole lands, livestock and resources. Northern Mexico was a violent and chaotic area due to the Indian raids. The raids after 1821 resulted in the death of thousands of Mexicans, halted most transportation and communications, and decimated the ranching industry that was a mainstay of the northern economy. As a result, the demoralized civilian population of northern Mexico put up little resistance to the invading U.S. army. The residents in Northern Mexico didn't trust and didn't want to be ruled by the dictator in Mexico. When the war was over, they had a choice to become U.S. Citizens or keep their Mexican citizenship and move to Mexico and over 95% of the residents decided to stay and accept U.S. Citizenship.





The Mexican government lost those lands by stupidity, neglect, corruption and because you had a tyrant that sent the Mexican army across the Rio Grande to kill civilians and burn and destroy their properties and when he lost the war he couldn't pay his debts and sold those lands. Mexico has NEVER been a stable country since they got their independence from Spain. Everything Spain built, they pretty much messed it up.
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Old 01-01-2019, 02:49 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellion1999 View Post
. Mexico has NEVER been a stable country since they got their independence from Spain. Everything Spain built, they pretty much messed it up.
Mexico's last revolution ended in 1920. After that the Institutional Revolutionary Party took control and retained it until finally voted out in 2000. It wasn't a great democracy during those years, but it did at last achieve stability.

Spain was as helpless as Mexico in terms of administering the territories which were eventually ceded as a consequence of the 1846 war. Apart from Santa Fe in New Mexico, and a handful of missions on the California coast, there simply was not much of a governmental presence at all. They were unsuccessful in persuading locals to immigrate to these lands because they failed miserably in their attempts to suppress the real rulers of those lands, the native tribes, especially the Comanche. The impresario program which launched the US immigration to Texas, was initiated by the Spanish government, and later sustained by the Mexican government following their independence revolution. Recruiting US immigrants was a product of the failures of both Spain and Mexico, to make the territories safe and livable for Mexican immigrants.
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Old 01-01-2019, 03:12 PM
 
Location: New Mexico
5,479 posts, read 3,113,615 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellion1999 View Post

The Mexican government lost those lands by stupidity, neglect, corruption ... Mexico has NEVER been a stable country since they got their independence from Spain. Everything Spain built, they pretty much messed it up.
Mexico was a sitting duck in the first few decades after independence from Spain. It was just too large to administer from Mexico City. Texas was only one of several secessionist efforts. Yucatan was more or less independent from Mexico for a while and there were other regions with similar ideas. California and New Mexico were largely running their own affairs. Russia was probing the northern coast of California. The flood of Americans had begun first with the Santa Fe Trail and later California and the Mormons. The balance was beginning to shift away from Mexico. Filabusteros were trying to carve off parts of the country. France tried to turn the country into a puppet state even in the 1860s. The inconvenient truth is that Mexico was better able to manage and administer its homeland as a smaller country after the war.
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Old 01-01-2019, 03:16 PM
 
9,671 posts, read 3,262,356 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Mexico's last revolution ended in 1920. After that the Institutional Revolutionary Party took control and retained it until finally voted out in 2000. It wasn't a great democracy during those years, but it did at last achieve stability.

Spain was as helpless as Mexico in terms of administering the territories which were eventually ceded as a consequence of the 1846 war. Apart from Santa Fe in New Mexico, and a handful of missions on the California coast, there simply was not much of a governmental presence at all. They were unsuccessful in persuading locals to immigrate to these lands because they failed miserably in their attempts to suppress the real rulers of those lands, the native tribes, especially the Comanche. The impresario program which launched the US immigration to Texas, was initiated by the Spanish government, and later sustained by the Mexican government following their independence revolution. Recruiting US immigrants was a product of the failures of both Spain and Mexico, to make the territories safe and livable for Mexican immigrants.

stability for who? the white ruling class in Mexico.



things were more stable under Spain. Spain was ending the 400 years empire in the Americas that it was costing them an arm and a leg to keep up their colonies. The massive Indian raids started under Mexico's watch not Spain. Once Mexico declared their independence from Spain, it was too corrupt, too inept and in debt. If they didn't lose those lands to the Texans by their independence and later to the U.S., they would have lost it later on to somebody else.



only 7 of the 19 states that formed the Mexican federation sent soldiers, armament, and money for the war effort. They were so divided and so corrupt that they never had a chance but General Santa Anna had an ego and sealed his fate when he sent the Mexican Army across the Rio Grande. In 1846 alone, the Mexican presidency changed hands four times, the war ministry six times, and the finance ministry sixteen times. That's how unstable and corrupt was the Mexican government.
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Old 01-01-2019, 03:27 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
37,912 posts, read 17,773,751 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellion1999 View Post
stability for who? the white ruling class in Mexico.

You wrote that
Quote:
Mexico has NEVER been a stable country since they got their independence from Spain
That was incorrect. Stability in government was achieved, and has been sustained, since 1920. It has not been an especially good government, but it has been stable, no more revolutions, no more coups, no more chaos in the transfer of power.
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