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Old 09-18-2016, 05:58 PM
 
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The land is irrelevant, it's all about the quality of government and stable society. Based on area and resources, Mexico should be a first world nation, but it's a third world backwater because of corruption throughout the entire society. If the USA had stopped acquiring territory with the Louisiana Purchase, no one would want to live in the territories purchased under the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. Instead Mexicans would be moving to as far as they need to get into the USA. Not for the land but for the stable civil society and government. That's the source of America's wealth and prosperity.
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Old 09-18-2016, 06:11 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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Originally Posted by ScoPro View Post
If the Mexican government hadn't turned into an autocratic dictatorship, then the Texas Revolution would not have occurred when it did.
Perhaps not, but some other cause would have been identified as justifying independence before long. The problem for Mexico wasn't just their chronic instability of government, but the demographics of Texas were such that the place had become American in character. Immigrants from the United States outnumbered native Mexicans in Texas by five to one on the eve of the revolution.

These were people who when they spoke of the constitution and their rights under the document, were referencing the US Constitution, not the Mexican 1824 charter. Irrespective of what the Mexican Constitution covered, the Texians viewed themselves as covered by the Bill of Rights. When slavery was banned in 1829, it was against their property rights as they saw matters.

Santa Anna was an excuse, his voiding of the 1824 Constitution really wasn't a matter of great consequence for the Texians who had been largely ignoring the document for years. Tariffs were circumvented by smuggling, local officials were easy to intimidate because there was no Mexican martial arm to back them in the exercise of their duties. Texas began behaving like it was independent long before the outbreak of revolution. Very few viewed themselves as Mexican citizens, they were Americans in thought, in religion and in political identity.

I suspect that even without the Mexican War, eventually the same sort of thing would have happened in the rest of the SW territories. They would have been filled up with American pioneers and also would have become too American in character to have remained content as Mexican citizens.
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Old 09-18-2016, 06:14 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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Originally Posted by Joao View Post
It began with American settlers in what was then Mexico. Quite ironic, is it not?

I've read about it on Robert Scheina's Latin American Wars. It began ironically with American settlers in Texas. Then they proclaimed their independence and a conflict went on, Texas winning its independence. Then the Texans joined the US and the conflict continued, this time the American forces occupied California, Monterrey, and from Veracuz, Mexico City. Long distances were covered by both armies, often in inhospitable desert like conditions. The US had 21 million as opposed to 8 million Mexicans. It was politically more stable and it had an industrial/manufacturing edge. Even then, at that time, these advantages were not clear, and it seems many thought Mexico would have won. The US also had a powerful Navy, which blockaded Mexico, and operated both in the Atlantic and in the Pacific.

Ironically again, what began with Americans settling in then Mexican lands has reversed back. Texas, California and New Mexico are becoming ethnically Mexican again:



A map showing the military operations:
Hopefully you read they were invited in by the Mexican government. Mexican illegals not invited in today.

The Mexican advantage was U.S. Forces had to attack Mexico proper. Hence the Duke of Wellington, well aware of what it took to provision his army in the Iberian peninsula did not see it as feasible. Some of the battles were near victories. Wars are rarely a given.

As for the second sentence boldened, do you live in this region to make this appraisal?

Last edited by Felix C; 09-18-2016 at 06:37 PM..
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Old 09-18-2016, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Brazil
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Originally Posted by Felix C View Post
As for the second sentence boldened, do you live in this region to make this appraisal?
I do not live there but I saw the map showing the distribution of Hispanic Americans in those lands (most of which are Mexican Americans), I checked the numbers, and that's where my comment came from.
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Old 09-18-2016, 06:41 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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Originally Posted by Joao View Post
I do not live there but I saw the map showing the distribution of Hispanic Americans in those lands (most of which are Mexican Americans), I checked the numbers, and that's where my comment came from.

Do you believe they have not assimilated and placed the USA first? Just like many earlier generations of British, Irish, Scottish, Norwegians, Danes, Poles, Swedes, Spaniards(like my family), Germans, Italians, Etc. who came and forgot their King, Tsar, Kaiser, etc and loyalty to their countries and become Americans, adopting the same customs, language, and traditions? You think they are homogeneous in their preferences? How would you feel if people stereotyped and made generalizations about you Joao and your country?
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Old 09-18-2016, 07:02 PM
 
Location: Brazil
163 posts, read 96,686 times
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Originally Posted by Felix C View Post
Do you believe they have not assimilated and placed the USA first? Just like many earlier generations of British, Irish, Scottish, Norwegians, Danes, Poles, Swedes, Spaniards(like my family), Germans, Italians, Etc. who came and forgot their King, Tsar, Kaiser, etc and loyalty to their countries and become Americans, adopting the same customs, language, and traditions? You think they are homogeneous in their preferences? How would you feel if people stereotyped and made generalizations about you Joao and your country?
I don't get what you mean. I was just mentioning the reversing back trend. If there will be assimilation or not, I don't know. History shows Anglo Americans are not willing or at least not as willing to assimilate Latin Americans as they were to assimilate European immigrants. That's just an opinion.
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Old 09-18-2016, 07:08 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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Originally Posted by Joao View Post
I don't get what you mean. I was just mentioning the reversing back trend. If there will be assimilation or not, I don't know. History shows Anglo Americans are not willing or at least not as willing to assimilate Latin Americans as they were to assimilate European immigrants. That's just an opinion.
The newly arriving population integrates within the dominate culture. Unless bent on conquest. You will not find another example in history where the reverse occurs and the dominate culture remains dominant. That would be national suicide. It would be a very poor decision to believe Europeans are homogeneous as well in terms of Anglos seeing Irish immigrants(the irony being there was a St. Patricio battalion of Irish deserters from the U.S. Army fighting in the Mexican Army in this war in the thread) as a fellow culture or Italians etc. Every new entrant assimilates to prosper. You will find Americans with Spanish surnames who no longer speak Spanish because they have completely assimilated. When those of Latin or Hispanic origins were resisted as becoming Americans, as Asians or even Negroes and Indians it because that very unique culture of the period in question which viewed other races, cultures and religions as inferior to ones own. Too bad for those on the short end of the stick.

There is no reversing back trend. The areas you mention where sparsely populated by Mexico, even neglected as mobility in the age in question would not allow for larger movement of people due to a variety of reasons, geography and wealth as it did indeed cost to travel. There is no taking back by Mexico of these regions because they were not of interest- hence the need to invite in Americans to Texas. The other regions were remnants of Spanish border and trading positions which were incorporated in Mexico with liberation.

Recommend reading De Voto's volumes on this era.

Last edited by Felix C; 09-18-2016 at 08:04 PM..
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Old 09-18-2016, 07:57 PM
 
Location: SoCal
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Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
No, because Bukkhara and Khiva were actual functioning societies.

(In truth; I don't care.)
I was talking about the territory north of Bukhara and Khiva, though.
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Old 09-18-2016, 08:01 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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Well done to both of you being familiar with history of the region. Presumably also the Great Game as well.

Ah well Peccavi
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Old 09-18-2016, 10:18 PM
 
Location: SoCal
5,720 posts, read 4,359,550 times
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Originally Posted by Felix C View Post
Well done to both of you being familiar with history of the region. Presumably also the Great Game as well.

Ah well Peccavi
Peccavi?
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