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Old 03-17-2017, 02:48 AM
 
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Say in one scenario Mark Antony and Cleopatra are victorious someway somehow. What do you think that means for the Roman Republic?
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Old 03-17-2017, 05:01 AM
 
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The Empire as we know it never comes to be.

Anthony and Cleopatra had designated various territories in Asia and Europe (incuding some unconquered) as their children's inheritance. By the end, Anthony was not working on behalf of the Roman people.
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Old 03-17-2017, 09:08 AM
 
Location: Bronx
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Originally Posted by Marleinie View Post
Say in one scenario Mark Antony and Cleopatra are victorious someway somehow. What do you think that means for the Roman Republic?
It would have insured the survival of the last vestige of a hellenstic state. Celopatria would have eypgt, the Levant and former Carthage holdings. With Anthony possession on greece. The Roman Republic will only be regulated to Italy, Gaul and Spain. If Celopatria and Anthony would have won, the Roman Empire would not be and the world would be a different place.
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Old 03-21-2017, 04:52 PM
 
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Assuming complete victory, the Roman world is governed from Alexandria, rather than Rome, and the culture would be predominately Greek, with some Egyptian customs mixed in. The world as we know if would turn out very differently. Although realistically many in Rome would probably be unwilling to accept this status quo, and civil war would likely break out again.

I think the most likely difference is that a total victory by Antony wouldn't have led to an immediate peace and establishment of a status quo like what happened in reality after Octavian's victory. Antony didn't have the political instincts of Octavian, and was not very popular among the senatorial class.

Continued Civil War would have been highly likely, with three possible outcomes:

1) Antony wins outright and establishes complete dominance, but faces future conspiracies like Julius Caesar did.

2) Antony is defeated by a figure supported by the Roman political class, who establishes dominance and reaffirms the city of Rome as the centre of power. If this figure doesn't have the political skills to restore stability, then Rome could easily re-enter a period of Civil War.

3) Civil War drags on for a long period of time, no clear winner emerges, then Rome begins to fall apart like Alexander's empire, breaking into separate states where strongmen have been able to consolidate power. What happens after this is impossible to say.
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Old 03-21-2017, 05:13 PM
 
Location: NW Indiana
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An Anthony / Cleopatra victory might have led to the restoration of the Roman republic, under Consuls friendly to Anthony. Announcing the restoration of the Republic upon the defeat / death of Octavian would have been a smart public relations move. Anthony and Cleopatra would have been safe in Egypt, using the control of the grain supply to keep the politicians in Rome under control.
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Old 03-21-2017, 06:16 PM
 
Location: New Mexico
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Nobody knows but it probably depends on whether the resulting power structure took on a Ptolemaic or Roman flavor. Either way it would have set things back a few decades but not forever. Alexandria generally was not fond of Cleopatra and certainly not pleased with having a strong Roman presence so their escapade might have ended in chaos pretty quickly. Murder and fratricide was the general method of securing power and succession in Cleopatra's Egypt. If you were lucky you were sent off to rule some remote province. Cleopatra was somehow considered a deity in a strange pantheon of Egyptian gods and goddesses...many of them in some sort of animal form. The Hellenistic influence existed in language but was becoming diluted in other ways over the centuries except in a group of local elites. Mark Antony probably wouldn't have been able to bring about much change in Egypt. He would have been confronted with endless alliances and conflicts from dozens of advisors, supporters, eunuchs, hangers-on, and the small jealous Macedonian elite. Mark Antony had no one to turn to...especially not a friendly Rome. Egypt was hard enough to handle under those conditions let alone any broader empire. Egypt's focus was always on an Egypt that was land-based and encompassed the Nile Valley and eastern Mediterranean coastal regions. Rome had been increasingly dependent on Egyptian grain up to this point. They naturally looked at a seaborne future and operated under a broader vision of expansion. Rome would have been meddling in Egypt at every opportunity, making things even more unstable.
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Old 03-21-2017, 06:20 PM
 
Location: NW Indiana
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An Anthony / Cleopatra victory might have led to the restoration of the Roman republic, under Consuls friendly to Anthony. Announcing the restoration of the Republic upon the defeat / death of Octavian would have been a smart public relations move. Anthony and Cleopatra would have been safe in Egypt, using the control of the grain supply to keep the politicians in Rome under control.
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Old 03-23-2017, 02:56 PM
 
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Bigger picture is what would have happened to the Christian religion. Constantine would not have happened, thus Christianity would have continued to be a rogue religion. Would Christianity have fizzled out? Would we today still be praying to Jupiter, Neptune and Vulcan.
Not only Europe but the history of the entire world would be drastically different. Countries, and religions we now have would not exist including Islam. Perhaps at some point, Judaism would have become the major religion of Europe and the Middle East. We can only wonder.
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Old 03-23-2017, 03:12 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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It would have depended upon the nature and completeness of the victory. Octavian had rallied Rome against Antony on the basis of Antony having "gone Egyptian" and thus betrayed the republic, or what was passing for the republic at the moment. Romans were especially enraged by:
1. Antony embracing Egyptian gods at the expense of the Roman gods
2. The idea that a victorious Antony would set up an Egyptian Queen to share in the rule of Rome
3. Antony disgracing his Roman wife by his affair with Cleopatra

A victory at Actium would have left Antony in a position to make severe demands on Rome by manipulating the grain supplies, but it would not have given him control of Italy. The Romans would still have despised Antony for his betrayals. More fighting and more victories would have been required for total hegemony over the empire, and consequently, the possibilities are many.
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Old 03-24-2017, 08:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by marino760 View Post
Bigger picture is what would have happened to the Christian religion. Constantine would not have happened, thus Christianity would have continued to be a rogue religion. Would Christianity have fizzled out? Would we today still be praying to Jupiter, Neptune and Vulcan.
Not only Europe but the history of the entire world would be drastically different. Countries, and religions we now have would not exist including Islam. Perhaps at some point, Judaism would have become the major religion of Europe and the Middle East. We can only wonder.
I'm not sure if Christianity's rise would be affected by this scenario. It was already dominant in Roman society prior to Constantine's conversion and none of its competitors were nearly as well organized. Christianity didn't take over Rome the way it did Gothic tribes or Armenia where if the king converted and then the whole nation had to follow suit.

Judaism isn't a "universal" religion where everyone can join so it would not become the state religion of any nation other than a Jewish one.

I also don't believe that Christianity is a necessary precursor to Islam. You can take out every reference to Issa (Jesus) in the Koran and still end up with a complete belief system. There are more than enough elements from Abrahamic traditions in Judaism and Sabaeans in southern Arabian that Muhammad can use to cobble together a new revelation.
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