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Old 04-04-2017, 05:33 PM
 
78,385 posts, read 60,579,949 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Razza94 View Post
Contrary to revisionists who think that blaming Germany is too cliché. I fully support the idea that Germany bares the most responsibility. It was itching for a fight, and the Kaiser was very much under the influence of his warmongering generals.

However, I firmly believe that all of the participants were guilty to differing degrees.
IMO, all the european wars string together though.

It's like bob punches Dave.
Then Dave punches Bob as his friend Steve walks up and then Steve thinks Dave started it.

I don't think we can appreciate WW2 without WW1...and prior to that and prior to that and prior to that....ad nauseum.
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Old 04-04-2017, 06:30 PM
 
6,112 posts, read 3,922,227 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
IMO, all the european wars string together though.

It's like bob punches Dave.
Then Dave punches Bob as his friend Steve walks up and then Steve thinks Dave started it.

I don't think we can appreciate WW2 without WW1...and prior to that and prior to that and prior to that....ad nauseum.
That's a good point. The desire to avenge past grievances was a key factor for most countries. It's impossible to understand WWI without understanding previous conflicts such as the Franco-Prussian war. Whereas it's impossible to truly understand WWII without understanding WWI. In fact, some historians actually class them as the same war, but with an interlude in the middle, WWII was simply part two of the conflict. Dealing with unfinished business.
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Old 04-04-2017, 06:43 PM
 
78,385 posts, read 60,579,949 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Razza94 View Post
That's a good point. The desire to avenge past grievances was a key factor for most countries. It's impossible to understand WWI without understanding previous conflicts such as the Franco-Prussian war. Whereas it's impossible to truly understand WWII without understanding WWI. In fact, some historians actually class them as the same war, but with an interlude in the middle, WWII was simply part two of the conflict. Dealing with unfinished business.
We'd be on WW5 by now if we didn't have nuclear weapons.

Sad commentary on nationalistic and ethnic stupidity.

Then again, England and France at one point were most hated rivals and of course the WW2 crowd so there is always hope that countries can come to their senses but anytime times get tough in a country, even if self-inflicted it's always easier for politicians to find an easy scapegoat.
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Old 04-04-2017, 06:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
We'd be on WW5 by now if we didn't have nuclear weapons.

Sad commentary on nationalistic and ethnic stupidity.

Then again, England and France at one point were most hated rivals and of course the WW2 crowd so there is always hope that countries can come to their senses but anytime times get tough in a country, even if self-inflicted it's always easier for politicians to find an easy scapegoat.
Technological advances have made it so major countries simply won't risk direct war with one another anymore, especially after experiencing the carnage of two world wars. Since WWII ended, I can't think of an example of two major developed nations fighting each another. Possibly the Falklands War? Although I'm not sure that Argentina could have been considered a developed nation in the 80's.
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Old 04-04-2017, 07:06 PM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
45,373 posts, read 60,561,367 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Razza94 View Post
Technological advances have made it so major countries simply won't risk direct war with one another anymore, especially after experiencing the carnage of two world wars. Since WWII ended, I can't think of an example of two major developed nations fighting each another. Possibly the Falklands War? Although I'm not sure that Argentina could have been considered a developed nation in the 80's.


There have been proxy wars, though. Korea, Viet Nam, Afghanistan come to mind.
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Old 04-04-2017, 08:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
There have been proxy wars, though. Korea, Viet Nam, Afghanistan come to mind.
I know, but beyond that there really has been nothing in terms of head to head military action. Direct confrontation seems to come mainly in the form of espionage, and more recently cyber warfare.
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Old 04-04-2017, 09:00 PM
 
Location: UNMC Area
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Originally Posted by josh fritz View Post
As well as possibly WII?
Had Archduke Franz Ferdinand not been assassinated would WWI been avoided?

No, I don't think so. The countries initially involved in WW1 were just itching for war, and eager to try out all their new weapons. Had this "spark" not started the "fire," something else would have.
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Old 04-04-2017, 09:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
IMO, all the european wars string together though.

It's like bob punches Dave.
Then Dave punches Bob as his friend Steve walks up and then Steve thinks Dave started it.

I don't think we can appreciate WW2 without WW1...and prior to that and prior to that and prior to that....ad nauseum.
Yes, but what the Franco-Prussian War, World War I, and World War II have in common is that Germany always struck first and invaded France.
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Old 04-05-2017, 07:06 AM
 
4,345 posts, read 2,793,716 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Razza94 View Post
Contrary to revisionists who think that blaming Germany is too cliché. I fully support the idea that Germany bares the most responsibility. It was itching for a fight, and the Kaiser was very much under the influence of his warmongering generals.

However, I firmly believe that all of the participants were guilty to differing degrees.
The causes for war were getting less and less every year. Nobody was itching for a fight. The German General Staff was concerned about Russia. They felt by 1918 Germany would not be able to defeat them. However, it is along way from there to initiating an aggressive war. In 1914 the Reichstag would not have supported it. Without war credits war would have been impossible. Wilhelm had no minister the stature of Bismarck who could bend the legislature to his will or find a way around it if that failed.

The Balkan Wars had passed without involving the major powers. They were the death throes of the Ottoman Empire in Europe. After them, in a few years, no further opportunity for instability could have presented itself. Franz Joseph and his militaristic clique would be gone in 1916. As Emperor, Ferdinand would have been more accommodating to his Slavic peoples. Relations with Russia would be correspondingly better, or less flamable anyway.

France was less and less interested in avenging 1870. Like Viet Nam, it was becoming a concern of an older generation, irrelevant to younger people.

Wilhelm was not eager for war 1914. He was far more interested in 1905. Russia was still reeling from its defeat by Japan. France's army was in turmoil from the Dreyfus Affair. That was Germany's opportunity to achieve total dominance in Europe, had it wanted to. But there was no justification for aggressive war so there was no war.

All Europe had to do was hang on for another year or 2. Things were changing rapidly and for the better. If the spark had not been struck in 1914 it might never have caught.
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Old 04-05-2017, 07:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
Yes, but what the Franco-Prussian War, World War I, and World War II have in common is that Germany always struck first and invaded France.
Although WWI is the exception in that Germany actually declared war on France. In all of those conflicts Germany happened to be more organised and able to strike faster. Prussia's rapid mobilisation against France in the Franco-Prussian war was a masterclass in managing logistics, technology, and infrastructure in order to strike swiftly and decisively against an unprepared enemy.
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