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Oh, puh-leeeze! Spare us the sob story about the poor, victimized, freedom-loving South...
So the same holds for those states dissatisfied with the Confederacy, and which want to leave... correct? Like eastern Tennessee, which in June of 1861 met in the East Tennessee Convention. The delegates petitioned the state government to permit East Tennessee to secede from Tennessee and form a new state, for the purpose of rejoining the Union. During the referendum of the previous February, over 80% of voters in East Tennessee had opposed secession.
Just to be clear, you care deeply about the will of 'the people', right? Well, what about the will of the people of East Tennessee?
Tennessee in fact did not permit East Tennessee to secede. When the people of East Tennessee moved organize a new state, Confederate troops moved in to occupy East Tennessee. The various leaders of the attempted secession were arrested. Is that the side, as you put it, of freedom? Hardly. The case of East Tennessee makes it abundantly clear that the South cared not one iota about the principle that states had the right to secede. They demanded that right themselves, but then dismissively opposed it when East Tennessee wanted to leave the Confederacy. It wasn't a principle but a self-serving talking point that they thew out the window when a part of the newly-established Confederacy wanted that same right for itself. Now what were you saying about 'any time' and 'any reason'?
Let's talk more about 'the people'. How about the people of South Carolina? The first state to secede had a populace that per the 1860 census was 57% black. Do you really expect us to believe that 'the people' of South Carolina wanted to secede? Or do you not consider that 57% to be people? If they're just property, then stop prattling on about 'the side of freedom'. Mississippi? 55% black. Louisiana? 47% black. Alabama? 45% black. Florida? Georgia? 44% black each. Those last four had minority black populations, but barely. And while none of those states held referenda, from the states that did we know that the white populations were hardly unanimous in voting for secession. 22% of Virginians (white, of course) voted against secession. 24% of Texans did so. 31% in Tennessee did. Had 'the people' been allowed to vote on secession in the Deep South - South Carolina through Texas - with the black populations opposed with near unanimity and the white populaces having substantial minorities opposed to it, it is clear that none of the states could have mustered a majority vote.
Im Black and Yes My family came from the south. However contrary to what you believe they were freed a decade prior to the civil war. Slaves werent all that profitable in those days anymore. New machinery was much cheaper so we were just let go. I would have much rather that the US hadnt started the war. Most issues regarding slavery would have been resolved within a decade or 2 and the long lasting racism started by the civil war probably wouldnt exist today.
The 100 years of post slavery hell that most black people were forced into made the results of the civil war unappealing to most blacks and the Federal rise to power which if the US was true to their word and they really cared for the Black man would have truly freed him. However no effort was made to help the black man who was unceremoniously thrown out of the only place he ever knew as home and pushed out on the street with absolutely no where to go. Do you realize how many Blacks were killed, died of starvation or just plain disappeared after they were emancipated?
It is probably somewhere in the 10's X amount of union and confederate soldiers who died during the war.
Even if every slave counted in the 1860 census was killed, died of starvation, or disappeared, it still wouldn't equal 10 times the amount of union and confederate soldiers who died during the war. The rest of your post is as suspect as the last point you tried to make.
Even if every slave counted in the 1860 census was killed, died of starvation, or disappeared, it still wouldn't equal 10 times the amounts of union and confederate soldiers who died during the war. The rest of your post is as suspect as the last point you tried to make.
I suggest you study some history. Stop watching movies.
About 660k whites died of some reason or another due to the war. Mostly from sickness.
Officially 4 million slaves were released and Officially 25% died within the first months. Mainly from sickness.This was compiled in the 1870's
That is 1,000,000 officially known deaths due to emancipation.
However it is known that 10 million were imported during the slave years. The Low 4 million number makes little sense.
Most modern studies put that number much closer to 8 million slaves released. Which makes more sense.
Most owners were known to hide their slaves when the Census man came by.
This was due to the fact that a slave had a value. About $9000 average in today's dollars. And that value was taxed as personal property. THere was much talk in the legislature to rescind the $300 (at the time) fixed value for a slave and make it actual market value which was thought to be closer to $3000 or 90,000 in todays dollars.
Lots of incentive to hide your property to keep it from being taxed.
So the official 4,000,000 census derived count of Slaves was most probably closer to 12,000,000.
Of which an estimated 25% died within the first few months after emancipation. The number is probably much greater.
I suggest you study math. Ten times the number of soldiers killed would mean over six and a half million emancipated slaves. Since you suggested multiples of tens above, that would mean over 13 million. According to Henry Louis Gates, the total number of Africans imported during the slave trade who survived was 10.7 million, with only a small fraction landing in the US.
So until you can provide some sourcing for your claims, save your indignation.
I suggest you study math. Ten times the number of soldiers killed would mean over six and a half million emancipated slaves. Since you suggested multiples of tens above, that would mean over 13 million. According to Henry Louis Gates, the total number of Africans imported during the slave trade who survived was 10.7 million, with only a small fraction landing in the US.
So until you can provide some sourcing for your claims, save your indignation.
I think the real point the poster is making is that the Civil War and the period after it resulted in massive disruption of the lives of slaves. I'm certain many did die of disease and hunger. Others may have died fighting the war or may have been randomly murdered.
What I object to is the idea that slavery was dying out on its own or that where was some peaceful way to resolve the problems between the North and South. People who think that way don't understand much about American history. Perhaps, slavery could have died out before the production of cotton became so significant. However, after Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin, it became possible to produce thousands of cheap articles of cotton clothing. Slavery was more profitable after 1800 than it was before.
The tension between states that held slaves and states that did not was present before the Constitution was framed in 1787. Ben Franklin was at the Constitutional Convention and before he died, he dedicated much of his effort to trying to eliminate slavery. The subsequent years educated Americans how intractable a problem slavery was. In 1820, the process of admitting new states to the Union had ground to a halt. Slave states wanted to maintain a balance between the number of states that held slaves and those that did not. It was only agreed that Missouri could become a state when a compromise was reached allowing Maine to join the United States of America at the same time. In 1850, there was a terrible fight in Congress when California sought admission to the Union as a free state. It took the combined efforts of Daniel Webster, Henry Clay, and John Calhoun to reach a legislative compromise that prevented the nation from breaking up than. Later in the 1850's, a prelude to the Civil War takes place in Kansas as a literal war wages between those who want Kansas as a slave state and those that want Kansas as a free state.
The Civil War largely occurred because politicians had done everything in their power to resolve the slavery issue through peaceful means and finally reached the end of their ability to do so.
I'm certain former slaves experienced much hardship in the aftermath of the Civil War. However, the nature of how the slaves obtained emancipation lead to much of this hardship. As painful as the process was, I doubt much could have been done to avoid it.
I'm much in agreement, markg, but making up 'facts' like the previous poster did only cripples one's argument. The lot of enslaved people before, during, and after the war was awful and despicable. And it remained that way at least until they and their descendants began pushing for civil rights by starting the Great Migration of the 20th century. Even then, they often migrated at great risk to themselves and their families and encountered plenty of hostility in the north, midwest, and west. The first Klan revival was centered in Indiana, for example. I'm not disputing any of that.
I also hate the 'slavery was dying out' nonsense as well. What's interesting is that even free soilers like Lincoln believed that disallowing slavery in the territories wouldn't result in full emancipation for many decades. Southerners gambled and lost, even though they were holding a stronger hand.
Im Black and Yes My family came from the south. However contrary to what you believe they were freed a decade prior to the civil war.
You haven't the foggiest idea of what I believe about your family. For clarity, since I'd never given your family an iota of thought prior to this post of yours, you're flat-out wrong that its history was 'contrary to what I believe'.
As such, you're the one with the belief contrary to reality.
Speaking of which, if you're black then how come you claim to be white in another post?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joewy
Im white. I grew up poor and in the city. When we went to the suburbs, I was hassled just as much as my Black and Latino friends. Perhaps even more.
Slaves werent all that profitable in those days anymore. New machinery was much cheaper so we were just let go. I would have much rather that the US hadnt started the war. Most issues regarding slavery would have been resolved within a decade or 2 and the long lasting racism started by the civil war probably wouldnt exist today.
You can prattle on all you want about your theory that slavery was dying out, and talk about how it magically just 'been resolved' soon (apparently because you think no one really wanted slaves anymore).
But the fact remains that the census of 1860 showed that the slave population of the Southern states grew by more than three quarters of a million slaves since the census of 1850. And as a percentage of the Southern population as a whole it had barely moved at all in the 30 years between 1830 and 1860 - from 33.3% to 32.3%. That's not an institution that is withering away. Statistics on Slavery
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joewy
The 100 years of post slavery hell that most black people were forced into made the results of the civil war unappealing to most blacks and the Federal rise to power which if the US was true to their word and they really cared for the Black man would have truly freed him. However no effort was made to help the black man who was unceremoniously thrown out of the only place he ever knew as home and pushed out on the street with absolutely no where to go. Do you realize how many Blacks were killed, died of starvation or just plain disappeared after they were emancipated?
It is probably somewhere in the 10's X amount of union and confederate soldiers who died during the war.
You sure do care tremendously for black people. I guess that explains why you pretend to be one online...
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