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Old 12-24-2018, 11:38 AM
 
4,326 posts, read 1,785,194 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maf763 View Post
But the trend towards industrialization, especially in the US, was in its infancy compared to an already established agrarian society during Jefferson's day. And America had the land available, at least at that time, to afford citizens the ability to own and work land. The industrial trend was far further along in Europe because they lacked sufficient land.

Not saying Jefferson was right, especially considering that his holdings went far beyond that of the yeoman farmer, just that his position was understandable at the time.

This is all true. However, while American industry was in its infancy, that's not the same as it being needed. In fact, Jefferson himself dabbled in manufacturing with his nailery, run rather brutally with slave labor.
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Old 12-24-2018, 01:17 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
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Well, Jefferson was nothing if not contradictory.
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Old 01-03-2019, 08:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NHartphotog View Post
Jefferson basically understood everything that could go wrong with a nation, and how to set up systems to avoid or minimize the problem. His knowledge and ability to avoid the countless pitfalls that every nation seems to fall for was pure genius. He even tried to set up ways to prevent future politicians from dismantling the protective systems he set up (limiting federal revenue to tariffs and trade levies; staying out of foreign wars; not printing fiat currency and leaving the bills for future generations...).

But too much time has gone by; America has abandoned every good idea and adopted every bad one; and now only the name of Thomas Jefferson still exists--and that to just a few of us.
True Jefferson was a "What if " kind of guy.
Hamilton was an abolitionist too. Jefferson no so much.
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Old 01-03-2019, 01:28 PM
 
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I think Jefferson was plenty Smart.

However, its Hamilton's ideas that have done a better job of standing the test of time. He saw America as an emerging industrial power and adopted policies that facilitated that emergence. He saw us as needing a central bank and his Bank of the United States was the forerunner of the less centralized federal reserve system. He saw we needed to make international trade easier and he created the Coast Guard and the system of lighthouses on the east coast. He saw that if the USA did a good job of paying its bills, we would always have international credit and we would attract investment. So, he saw to it that the newly formed federal government assumed the debt of the states that was incurred fighting the Revolutionary War.

Jefferson was a great philosopher and writer though. Few writings will ever match the eloquence of the Declaration of Independence. However, strict adherence to the notion of state's rights did not serve the needs of an expanding nation and expanding economy. Even Jefferson ultimately departed from a strict construction of the Constitution when he approved the Louisiana Purchase in 1803.

While I admire both men, I ultimately think Hamilton's ideas prevailed.
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Old 01-03-2019, 04:18 PM
 
Location: North Beach, MD on the Chesapeake
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Default Between Hamilton and Jefferson who was smarter?

I'll let you decide by asking my own question. Which one died of old age and which one got into an unnecessary duel in which he fired into the air?
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Old 01-04-2019, 12:47 PM
 
Location: Riding a rock floating through space
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Originally Posted by Old Gringo View Post
Jefferson, without a doubt.


He never agreed to a stupid duel over who has the bigger ****.


Hamilton wrote prior to the duel he had no intentions of shooting Burr, but would "waste" his first shot. Either he was suicidal or not nearly as smart as people give him credit for. Why on earth would someone accept a duel with no intention of defending his life?
His oldest son had died in a pistol duel 3 years prior to this, so maybe he was in such grief over that he just wanted to die - and dying in the same way just made poetic sense to him? I don't know, the story really makes little sense to me.

Last edited by duke944; 01-04-2019 at 01:13 PM..
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Old 01-04-2019, 03:39 PM
 
Location: East of the Sun, West of the Moon
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Hamilton was the man we needed, but I wonder how Jefferson's ideals might be manifested in a post-industrial, increasingly automated world.
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Old Yesterday, 09:08 PM
 
Location: Exeter, NH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maf763 View Post
Except for the whole slavery thing....
America did not INVENT slavery; it's been going on since the first civilizations emerged.

If America had never imported a single slave, the problem would still have existed: "It was indeed the Europeans who purchased large numbers of Africans, and sent them far away to work in their colonies. On the other hand, Africans bear some responsibility themselves: some African societies had long had their own slaves, and they cooperated with the Europeans to sell other Africans into slavery. The Europeans relied on African merchants, soldiers and rulers to get slaves for them, which they then bought, at convenient seaports." https://www.sahistory.org.za/topic/atlantic-slave-trade

The Founding Fathers were trying to set up a government that was subject to some influence by its citizenry (rather than having a traditional Ruling Elite that does whatever it wants, like we have today). And because the Founding Fathers set things up right, public pressure could be brought to bear to force government to address societal problems.
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Old Yesterday, 10:50 PM
 
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Jefferson & Madison were in awe of Hamilton's intellect. They considered him a formidable political opponent. Hamilton saw a future Jefferson could not comprehend. Hamilton won the future.
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Old Today, 07:03 AM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NHartphotog View Post
America did not INVENT slavery; it's been going on since the first civilizations emerged.

If America had never imported a single slave, the problem would still have existed: "It was indeed the Europeans who purchased large numbers of Africans, and sent them far away to work in their colonies. On the other hand, Africans bear some responsibility themselves: some African societies had long had their own slaves, and they cooperated with the Europeans to sell other Africans into slavery. The Europeans relied on African merchants, soldiers and rulers to get slaves for them, which they then bought, at convenient seaports." https://www.sahistory.org.za/topic/atlantic-slave-trade

The Founding Fathers were trying to set up a government that was subject to some influence by its citizenry (rather than having a traditional Ruling Elite that does whatever it wants, like we have today). And because the Founding Fathers set things up right, public pressure could be brought to bear to force government to address societal problems.
Save your bold-face outrage, nobody was suggesting America did invent slavery. But Jefferson had no idea how to mitigate the damage that slavery was doing to the US, especially after the explosion of the practice in the early 1800's. Go read his 'wolf by the ear' letter.

And since we're at it, African involvement in the slave trade doesn't absolve America of its responsibilities in expanding and prolonging the process. A few hundred thousand Africans were shipped to the US and the prior colonies, the last ones legally arriving in 1808. In 1860, there were about 4 million. As far as ruling elite, most of the adult population was disenfranchised in the early years of the republic as compared to now, so that's a pretty vacuous statement as well.
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