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Old 01-01-2018, 09:41 AM
 
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I think that based upon European History, there would be no lasting peace until the advent of nuclear weapons.

Perhaps Hitlers early death would slow WW2 but there was already a lot of momentum there.

If someone managed to get control of the Nazi party quickly, they could have used the assassination as a rallying cry...much like the false flag attack they used to invade Poland etc.
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Old 01-01-2018, 10:10 AM
 
Location: 912 feet above sea level
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Futurist110 View Post
What do you think would have happened afterwards if Georg Elser had managed to assassinate Hitler in 1939 (like he almost did in real life)?
As far as What-Ifs go, this is a decent one. One thing to remember in these analyses is that it is easier to determine what doesn't happen that what does.

First question: who is Germany's next leader? The circle of potential leaders is small. There's Hitler's main lieutenants, such as Goering, Goebbels, Himmler, Bormann, Ribbentrop, Hess, Speer. Hess was far out of his league by that point, while Bormann's star was yet to ascend - and at any rate he was so loathed that with Hitler gone, his power would mostly vanish. Ribbentrop was widely disliked, while Speer too lacked a power base. Goebbels was a very good propagandist but appears to have recognized that while he had that niche he lacked national leadership abilities. That leaves Goering and Himmler, and the military is going to play kingmaker. For one, Goering was Hitler's designated successor. The military, for all its toadiness regarding Hitler, valued the rule of law and placed a great deal of emphasis on the personal loyalty oaths that Hitler extracted from all officers. Also, Keitel (Army) and Raeder (Navy) had comparatively little power. So the military was going to swing behind Goering. Himmler might object, but the brass is never for one moment going to equivocate between an Air Marshall and the SS.

It will very likely be Hermann Goering.

Now, a mistake many make when assessing Nazi Germany is to assume that Adolf Hitler was merely the embodiment of the Nazi Party. The opposite is true. The Nazi Party was the embodiment of Adolf Hitler. When Hitler dies, the party will be fairly malleable. And Goering is a very different man that Hitler. For one, Goering lacks Hitler's man-of-destiny self-mythologizing. Second, he surely lacks Hitler's do-or-die gambler's tendencies. Goering was leery of the wisdom of the attack on Poland, and even more so of the move west. It is extremely unlikely that he attacks the western powers. Such an action is simply not in his nature. Since neither France nor the United Kingdom were inclined to press the issue military, the Sitzkrieg continues. But there's more possibility here than just avoiding open conflict. Goering is going to have some opportunities for rapproachment with France and the UK.

Three weeks after Hitler is assassinated, the USSR invades Finland. And Goering will have a chance to cast Germany as a preferable alternative to the Stalin-led USSR. To begin with, much of the West's opposition to Germany was imbued in opposition to Hitler. Goering offers a different person as well as a political out for the West if it wishes to switch gears. Though Goering is an anti-Semite who cares nothing for the Jews, he lacks the maniacal drive to exterminate them, which is counterproductive in numerous ways (politically, as a drain on resources, etc.). So though he would surely keep up the persecution (anti-Semitism is a tried and true political tool), he scales it back considerably. This costs him very little and gains him much. He can end the General Government and create a rump Polish state (which some nice bits of territory sliced off for Germany) as a sop to the West, while also allowing him to tell the German people that the so-called Polish threat has been neutralized and, hey, some lebensraum, too! The fascist Polish puppet state will, of course, be anti-Soviet. And this action will put pressure on Stalin to do something similar. We might end up with a West Poland and an East (communist) Poland. He can offer the British a scaling-back of German naval expansion. Some sort of peace - not friendship, but a normalization of stable relations once again - can probably be had with the UK, and France will have no choice but to follow.

Domestically, Goering will have his hands full. The Nazi economy was a basket case. Hitler was totally ignorant of economics, and his management style was not conducive to allowing his ministers to properly manage it. The government-led boom of the 1930s was necessary but unsustainable, and the economy was shifting to a dependency on looting conquered territories and exploiting them for slave labor. Goering will have to oversee, or at least appoint those who can do so, the transition to a normal economy. If he can manage this, he can offer the German public all the fruits that Hitler had brought (rearmament, expansion, national prestige, etc.) with an avoidance of war. There's no guarantee he can do this, but it's 1939. Goering has not yet withdrawn into amusing himself with outrageous outfits and admiring the art he looted.

What then? Who knows. Europe is unstable, split between a democratic West, a fascist Germany, and Stalin, none of which like each other. But the knock-on effects are considerable.

*Churchill's star never ascends. He never becomes Prime Minister and is largey forgotten to history.
*Soviet expansion doesn't happen. Eastern Europe doesn't fall into Stalin's lap as a consequence of having to roll back a German invasion, and Stalin remains primarily insular.
*Faced with a Southeast Asia controlled by powers unhindered in Europe - France and the Netherlands unconquered, Britain not beseiged - Imperial Japan doesn't roll the dice and attack. They're constrained by sanctions and have no choice but to scale back their actions in China.
*As a result, Chiang Kai-shek holds on. Mao never comes to power. The great arrival of global communism in the latter half of the 1940s doesn't happen.
*America's coming-out doesn't happen. No postwar reordering of Europe. No President Eisenhower. No President Kennedy. Maybe no President Truman, as FDR has no war to parlay into third and fourth terms.
*Japan is never conquered and never falls into the U.S. orbit.
*No De Gaulle.
*No Israel.
*No billion-dollar Manhattan Project, and nuclear weapons don't appear until the 1950s at least.

Like I indicated earlier, beyond a very short horizon it's far easier to discern what doesn't happen than what does.
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Old 01-01-2018, 10:45 AM
 
Location: San Diego CA
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Nothing would have changed. The same forces would be at work. Generations long virulent anti semitism. The Communist Jewish alleged conspiracy to stab the WWI German army in the field while they were still fighting. Anger at the provisions of the Paris peace treaty. There were many angry fanatical Nazis who would have picked up the torch and taken the road to ruin.
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Old 01-01-2018, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
The Jewish immigration from Europe started in 1870 when the Ottoman's passed the law foe Jews to own land. The high majority of Jews in the Mandate were from North Africa and the Middle East. Not from Europe.
The wrench into Israels existence was thrown in years before Hitler wrote Mein Kampf.
The largest surge was in the aftermath of WW II. The biggest three year period ('48-'50) saw 512,345 immigrants arriving in Israel.

Is it your argument that there was no relationship between the Holocaust and the support Israel received for establishing their own nation?
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Old 01-01-2018, 01:05 PM
 
Location: Silicon Valley
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If Hitler is taken out in 39, the road to war is likely still set. By that point the Nazis had asserted power and had too much very precious capital laid out to the upcoming war effort. However, the other Nazis may have decided not to invade the Soviet Union, which sped up their demise. Rather, Germany's conquered lands could not have held for long. Or rather, they could have held, but productivity and innovation in the area would have fallen off rapidly. It seems most unlikely that the Nazis could have convinced the entire continent of Europe that an Aryan race was the only way to be. The losers in this situation would have stopped contributing, and Europe would become a dark and dreary place, with the victors feasting on the spoils of war until said spoils ran out.

Had an assassination been carried out earlier though, and Germany likely would have shifted to the left. The German people didn't really have a strong moderate choice, and their crushing external debt made moderation an impossible solution.
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Old 01-01-2018, 04:58 PM
 
Location: The Ranch in Olam Haba
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
The largest surge was in the aftermath of WW II. The biggest three year period ('48-'50) saw 512,345 immigrants arriving in Israel.

Is it your argument that there was no relationship between the Holocaust and the support Israel received for establishing their own nation?
Most of those people arrived thanks to the Muslims and not Europe.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/art...-of-the-1950s/

The Mandate was already rolling forward after WW1. The British played both sides of the coin. On one side they had Balfour and on the other side they had all their British colonies. Hitler was paying Jews from Germany to go to the Mandate. Britain did everything they could for Israel to not exist and they did it many years before Hitler became a issue.

Jordan - History - The Making of Transjordan

There was some relationship to the Holocaust, but it wasn't a major factor in it's creation.
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Old 01-01-2018, 05:18 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
Most of those people arrived thanks to the Muslims and not Europe.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/art...-of-the-1950s/

The Mandate was already rolling forward after WW1. The British played both sides of the coin. On one side they had Balfour and on the other side they had all their British colonies. Hitler was paying Jews from Germany to go to the Mandate. Britain did everything they could for Israel to not exist and they did it many years before Hitler became a issue.

Jordan - History - The Making of Transjordan

There was some relationship to the Holocaust, but it wasn't a major factor in it's creation.
None of that really addresses my central points. Without the Holocaust you have less immigration. Without the Holocaust, the compelling reason of self defense is removed as a reason to support an independent Israel. The US granted recognition immediately in 1948. Had there been no Holocaust, I question whether that support still would have been there.
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Old 01-01-2018, 06:30 PM
 
Location: New York Area
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Alternative history is almost impossible. Especially in a situation like Europe's in the 1930's, where there were a lot of moving parts.
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Old 01-01-2018, 08:58 PM
 
Location: The Ranch in Olam Haba
23,707 posts, read 30,741,790 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
None of that really addresses my central points. Without the Holocaust you have less immigration. Without the Holocaust, the compelling reason of self defense is removed as a reason to support an independent Israel. The US granted recognition immediately in 1948. Had there been no Holocaust, I question whether that support still would have been there.
Without the Holocaust there were nearly 700,000 Jews already there. The Vichy were worse to the Jews than the Nazis were in North Africa. The British didn't care enough to pass on the information about the concentration camps. American voters pushed for the recognition of Israel by the US. Every Jew knows of the song 'Next Year in Jerusalem' (or at least part of it).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AbX0BPWbhs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zii_aIudSqk

In my opinion, instead of Germany there would have been a war against the UK as they were colonizing the planet.
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Old 01-02-2018, 07:10 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
48,564 posts, read 24,115,388 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
Without the Holocaust there were nearly 700,000 Jews already there. The Vichy were worse to the Jews than the Nazis were in North Africa. The British didn't care enough to pass on the information about the concentration camps. American voters pushed for the recognition of Israel by the US. Every Jew knows of the song 'Next Year in Jerusalem' (or at least part of it).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AbX0BPWbhs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zii_aIudSqk

In my opinion, instead of Germany there would have been a war against the UK as they were colonizing the planet.
You keep repeating yourself as though no additional information has come your way. Yes there was already immigration, but WWII and the Holocaust was the major impetus for vastly accelerated immigration and the push for an independent nation. You continue to pretend that this didn't happen.
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